Fear and Loathing and the Existential Angst of 8AA1

[Tuomo]

So I'd like to talk about 8AA1:


Do you understand how to play it? How vehicles and infantry move into and through it? How to apply TEM when firing at units in it?

I ask because if we understand and are comfortable with Building-Road hexes in general and 8AA1 in particular, we can maybe have Dense City Maps like this:


So let's talk about it.

Of all the hexes on all the official geoboards, there's at least 26 examples of Roads entering a Building hex. We've got:


And for completeness, we've even got a Marketplace (12R7), which of course gets its own rules (B23.73).

But 8AA1 stands alone, because it's the only such hex where the Road actually passes through the hex.

To quote Dick The Bruiser from classic Detroit Radio, "What does this mean".


Continued on the next post

 

[Tuomo]

A couple of questions spring to mind. My speculation follows; I'd love to hear other opinions, especially those backed up by rules references.

1) Where is a unit when it enters 8AA1 (or any Building-Road hex), not using Bypass? In the Building? On the Road?

The artwork in 8AA1 makes me wonder if there's a separate non-Bypass Location inside the hex for a unit to sit in, a "quasi-Location" if you will, but there doesn't seem to be any support for that in the rules. Furthermore, B3.3 says "The other terrain in a road hex determines any TEM of that hex"; there's no talk of a unit occupying something else besides the Building when it enters the hex. (Let's leave off the possibility of Wall Advantage for the moment).

B3.3 does talk about how Infantry could be subject to Interdiction/FFMO if it enters such a hex "via the Road rate"; A4.132 talks about how the possible aiming points can include the center of the Road as Infantry enters the hex. The B3.4 and second A4.132 Examples are useful here too. But none of these rules or Examples say anything implying that there's a separate non-Bypass Location (ie, on the Road itself) in the hex; you're either in the Building or you're not, regardless of how many MF Infantry might have expended in getting there (ie, using the Road or not).

So no, the fact that 8AA1's road passes entirely through the hex doesn't seem to matter in terms of where a non-Bypassing unit is (and the TEM it gets) when it enters the hex; it seems to be in the Building, not on the Road.

2) But... but... what if an entering unit wants to stay on the Road? In particular, doesn't the rulebook allow for a unit to pass through 8AA1 while staying completely on the Road?

Yeah, one would think, wouldn't one?

After some thought, the only thing I can think of is to treat a Building-Road hex like a Woods-Road hex. That's the only existing mechanism in the rulebook that seems to fit. Nobody bats an eye at moving through a Woods-Road hex along the Road, and it's only a short trip from there to Entering the Woods portion of the hex. The same can apply to a Building-Road hex; the only minor difference would seem to be that one wouldn't put a Trail Break through a Building if a vehicle entered/exited it.

So. Does that make sense for 8AA1 and the other Building-Road hexes shown above?

Does it also work in the context of a Dense City Map like this?

 

[Michael R]

IIRC, there is a hex or hexes like 8AA1 in Festung Budapest, with rules that might answer your questions about it.

 

[Vinnie]

I always assumed it played like P5.5
5.5 BUILDING-ROAD: Hexes PBW18 and PBX18 are unique in that each contains a building with a road running through the hex.11 For all purposes, the building is treated as a normal single-story house (B23.21) and the road is treated as a Narrow Street (4.1) that runs along hexsides X18-X19 and W18-W19 [EXC: the TCA change restrictions of 4.121-122 do not apply; instead, a vehicle using VBM along these Narrow Street hexsides may never have its own hex within its TCA. LOS to unit, on the road is always traced to its center dot for as per A4.132), not to its vertex, although the building depiction can block such LOS. Vehicles move directly from hexside X18-X19 to hex PBY18 (and vice versa) and from hexside X18-X19 to hexside W18-W19 (and vice versa)].

 

[Brad M-V]

Keep it simple, if you can trace a LOS to any road depiction you can "shoot from/be targeted on" that road. I like the road through the hex look for maps, and would like to see more built up city maps like your example above because it looks more like a city.

 

[sdennis]

Inor has these hexes too

 

[Tuomo]

I always assumed it played like P5.5
5.5 BUILDING-ROAD: Hexes PBW18 and PBX18 are unique in that each contains a building with a road running through the hex.11 For all purposes, the building is treated as a normal single-story house (B23.21) and the road is treated as a Narrow Street (4.1) that runs along hexsides X18-X19 and W18-W19 [EXC: the TCA change restrictions of 4.121-122 do not apply; instead, a vehicle using VBM along these Narrow Street hexsides may never have its own hex within its TCA. LOS to unit, on the road is always traced to its center dot for as per A4.132), not to its vertex, although the building depiction can block such LOS. Vehicles move directly from hexside X18-X19 to hex PBY18 (and vice versa) and from hexside X18-X19 to hexside W18-W19 (and vice versa)].

It's actually Q5.5, from Pegasus Bridge. Here's a pic:

 

[footsteps]

Not building/road, but still board 8, this has always annoyed me...

 

[bprobst]

So I'd like to talk about 8AA1:
View attachment 19645

Do you understand how to play it? How vehicles and infantry move into and through it? How to apply TEM when firing at units in it?

There are no rules in Chapter B that define how this hex is played.

(Well, except for the TEM bit; a unit in that hex is in the building or in bypass of the building; apply TEM accordingly.)

As mentioned above, rule Q5.5 addresses this hex perfectly. Sadly, rule Q5.5 is not in Chapter B (or any other core rules chapter). Rule Q5.5 is meaningless unless you happen to be playing a Pegasus Bridge scenario.

MMP have been aware of this issue for at least, I dunno, twenty years? Because that's when I first asked them the question. Still waiting for a reply (but I know you can't rush perfection).

 

[Gordon]

 

[M Faulkner]

I always assumed it played like P5.5
5.5 BUILDING-ROAD: Hexes PBW18 and PBX18 are unique in that each contains a building with a road running through the hex.11 For all purposes, the building is treated as a normal single-story house (B23.21) and the road is treated as a Narrow Street (4.1) that runs along hexsides X18-X19 and W18-W19 [EXC: the TCA change restrictions of 4.121-122 do not apply; instead, a vehicle using VBM along these Narrow Street hexsides may never have its own hex within its TCA. LOS to unit, on the road is always traced to its center dot for as per A4.132), not to its vertex, although the building depiction can block such LOS. Vehicles move directly from hexside X18-X19 to hex PBY18 (and vice versa) and from hexside X18-X19 to hexside W18-W19 (and vice versa)].

This is why we changed some of the roads/river hexes on the PG map. Did not want to have write a rule to cover it. Perry agreed.

 

[GeorgeBates]

I confess to blissful ignorance that this was even an issue. Although the A4.132 example and A4.31 were firmly fixed in mind, Q5.5 had escaped notice. The big distinction between 8AA1 and PBW18 and X18 is that the former's center dot is in the building, which makes it unlike 5I9 in the A4.132 example (note that strangely the dot is in the building on VASL 5I9, even though both print and VASL maps show the center dot in 5R1; the 8AA1 VASL and print maps match).


Based on the second example in A4.132, my understanding was that TEM would depend on the type of movement and MF expenditure, a la shellholes (B2). Thus, for 8AA1:

• If using road movement from either Z1 or BB1, 1MF and the unit must either end its MPh in the hex or exit across the other road hexside (or reverse movement and cross the same hexside again); FFMO applies in all cases, or
• If bypass movement, 1 MF across either one or two hexsides, with the potential benefit of the building blocking LOS to bypass vertices from some angles, or
• Pay 2 MF to enter and receive the wooden building TEM

Basically, pay 2 MF for the assurance of TEM, or 1 MF for speed and take your chances.

Of course, when a unit ends its MPh in 8AA1, it is in the building and receives +2 TEM.

 

[bprobst]

The big distinction between 8AA1 and PBW18 and X18 is that the former's center dot is in the building

That's not the distinction at all. The distinction is that the road in 8AA1 bypasses the building as opposed to just terminating at it. That's why Q5.5 exists: if the regular Chapter B rules could cope with the situation, there would be no need at all for Q5.5. The hex is unplayable using the existing Chapter B rules.

 

[GeorgeBates]

[Updated post for greater precision/clarity]

... The distinction is that the road in 8AA1 bypasses the building as opposed to just terminating at it.

• Is bypassing the best way way to describe this? An infantry unit moving along the road would cross two hexsides, not move along one or two of them
• Whether a road terminates in hex or crosses two hexsides should not matter - the A4.132 example is still helpful, because a unit could just as easily enter across 5I10-I9 hexside and then return the way it came, spending two MF and remaining eligible for the road bonus

That's why Q5.5 exists: if the regular Chapter B rules could cope with the situation, there would be no need at all for Q5.5. The hex is unplayable using the existing Chapter B rules.

• Appears to be agreement that Q5.5 is addressing the specific CG terrain, and nothing else
• Chapter B may yet be of help, see B3.3:

The other terrain in a road hex determines any TEM of that hex. However, if a unit moves into a hex via the road rate it would be subject to Interdiction/FFMO (in the case of Infantry) instead of the TEM of the other terrain in the hex unless the LOS was traced through other non-Open Ground terrain between the firer and target points. The possible target points are increased when firing at an Infantry unit using the road movement rate in a combination/Non-Open Ground terrain hex (as per A4.132). ​

A4.132 and B3.3 appear to work together to address movement through 8AA1. By declaring the MF expended, and how a unit is entering the hex, the applicable LOS and TEM can be determined.

 

[Stewart]

3.3 The other terrain in a road hex determines any TEM of that hex. However, if a unit moves into a hex via the road rate it would be subject to Interdiction/FFMO (in the case of Infantry) instead of the TEM of the other terrain in the hex unless the LOS was traced through other non-Open Ground terrain between the firer and target points. The possible target points are increased when firing at an Infantry unit using the road movement rate in a combination road/Non-Open Ground terrain hex (as per A4.132).

Doesn't matter if its "bypassing the Building or not"

You either enter via the Road or you enter the terrain.

Narrow street is actually a poor application of this ROAD feature.
Do you still apply the TCA restrictions in turning? Maybe you should for moving your TCA to a hexspine where the center dot crosses the building depiction but not when you are pointing the gun out into a field (i.e. bottom side ofAA1) I know of NO turrets that fall so far back off the rear of the vehicle to even remotely be impeded...( there are exceptions I'm sure).

 

[Bill Kohler]

It seems to me that the simplest way to treat 8AA1 hex would be this:
--For Infantry, treat it like a wood-road hex (B13.31).
--For vehicles, treat them as if traveling at the normal center-of-the-hex road cost in MPs (unless they explicitly state that they're entering the house), but for LOS and TCA treat them as if they're bypassing along AA1-AA2 (D2.3).

As has been pointed out, the road in 8AA1 doesn't meet the definition of a Narrow Street, so we don't use Narrow Street rules. ASLRB silence regarding the road in hex 8AA1 seems similar to ASLRB silence regarding the roads in A5/A6 and GG5/GG6 that're on every geoboard. We don't treat these as Narrow Streets either--instead we do what makes the most sense, which is what I think we should do in the case of 8AA1. Treating the vehicle as being at the center dot of 8AA1 doesn't seem right because the hex appears to treat the road and the building as two different "places" within the hex--it doesn't show the road going in one side of the building and out of the other. So what to do?

The Bypass rules seem closest to what appears to be going on in the hex. The bypass rules tell us how to treat crest lines that don't go to the edge of the hex (A4.34: you mentally nudge the crest line outward so that it touches the edge of the hex), so we could do the same here and mentally nudge the road out so that it touches the edge of the hex.

 

[Brad M-V]

How can this be played wrong if you always draw a LOS from/to a road hex for a unit on the road? Where on the road doesn't matter really, if an enemy unit has a LOS to the road within that hex then the unit is targetable even if the road circles the building.

 

[Bill Kohler]

How can this be played wrong if you always draw a LOS from/to a road hex for a unit on the road?

Will the unit receive building TEM? Can the unit be seen if the LOS reaches the building symbol before it touches the road symbol? What if the building in 8AA1 extended east-to-west to the very edges of the hex, would a unit north of the hex then have an LOS to a unit on the road? It's indeed a perplexing situation.

 

[GeorgeBates]

Make no mistake - 8AA1 is a building hex. More specifically, a building hex with a road in it. Unless a unit in the hex is using bypass movement or target of a snap shot, LOS will always be drawn to the center dot (never to the road depiction). However, that unit will not receive +2 TEM during its MPh if it moves along the road.

 

[Bill Kohler]

Make no mistake - 8AA1 is a building hex. More specifically, a building hex with a road in it. Unless a unit in the hex is using bypass movement or target of a snap shot, LOS will always be drawn to the center dot (never to the road depiction). However, that unit will not receive +2 TEM during its MPh if it moves along the road.

What happens if a vehicle uses road movement rate to enter the hex and ends its MPh there: does it receive building TEM? Is it in the LOS of a viewer "on the opposite side" of the building from it? I don't know how to answer those questions.