Tuomo
Keeper of the Funk
WELL NOW. I think we've all learned something today, neh?
Fear and Loathing and the Existential Angst of 8AA1
- Thread starter Tuomo
- Start date
GeorgeBates
Elder Member
BattleSchool
Elder Member
If you can suss how to play such hexes, give 'em some DASL love. Chapter J offers scope to tease this concept out a little further, especially wrt your earlier comments about how to deal with hexside terrain in such hexes.
Bill Kohler
Senior Member
I've thought about 8AA1 some more, and have re-read the referenced rules, and have considered what previous posters have posted, and I think it might be possible to play by what the rulebook says without the need for a special rule or ruling in regard to this hex.
With regard to vehicles:
B23.4: A vehicle may enter a building hex only via VBM (D2.3), Factory Stairwell (23.742), or by risking rubble/cellar collapse (23.41) [EXC: Marketplace; 23.73]....
By this rule, vehicles that wish to stay on the road in 8AA1 must use VBM.
D2.3: The MP cost of VBM is double that of the hex’s non-obstacle terrain (usually Open Ground) per hexside traversed; any additional terrain cost in that hex (such as SMOKE or a move to higher elevation) is also doubled. The vehicle is moving around the obstacle within the hex—not through the obstacle.
In the case of VBM in 8AA1, the other terrain in the hex is the road, so the vehicles pays double the normal road costs (imagine that the road is moving around the building, thus justifying the higher MP expense).
Rule D2.37 then tells us what point (the CAFP) the LOS is traced to, and along with rule B3.3 tells us that the building can block LOS but never give the vehicle building TEM while it's in bypass along the road.
With regard to Infantry:
It appears we have two ways for an Infantry unit to stay on the road and move through hex 8AA1:
(1) It can use Infantry Bypass along the road. (If it does this, LOS can be traced to [only one] of the two vertices of AA1-AA2, or to the hex center dot if the LOS to it crosses the bypass hexside on the way to the center dot. [A4.34, being a higher-numbered rule, would seem to overrule the A4.132 (a) & (b) aiming points.])
(2) An Infantry unit can directly enter the building for road movement costs (per the B3.4 EX), then directly exit the building as it leaves the hex. (If it enters the hex this way, the firer can check both (a) and (b) aim points, but the Infantry receives building TEM at the (a) [center dot] aim point.)
In both cases, IMO, the Infantry is considered to have been on the road its entire turn and is eligible for the Road Bonus.
Also there appear to be these two options:
(3) The Infantry could choose to pay 2 MF to directly enter the building without using the road, thereby avoiding the A4.132(b) road-hexside aiming point even if entering across the Z1-AA1 or BB1-AA1 hexsides.
(4) The Infantry could choose to do standard bypass along the non-road hexsides.
A4.3 BYPASS: Bypass enables unbroken Infantry to move through a building/woods hex without entering the obstacle in that hex (and consequently having to pay the two MF cost of actually entering a building or woods), whenever that obstacle does not physically touch the hexside being Bypassed.
A4.31 The movement cost of Bypass becomes that of the other terrain in the Location—usually one MF for Open Ground or two MF to enter higher elevation Open
Ground. ... Remember that the unit is moving around the obstacle within the hex—not through it.
A4.34 BYPASS LOS: Infantry using Bypass are subject to special terrain modifiers and LOS rules. A unit firing at a Bypassing unit does not have to trace its LOS to the target hex center, but has the option to make its one allowed LOS check per attack to either hex vertex along a hexside traversed by a unit moving in Bypass (thus a choice of two vertices for one hexside Bypass, three vertices for two hexsides Bypassed, etc.) instead. Should the LOS of a firing unit reach an Open Ground Bypass hexside vertex unobstructed (see also C.5), that unit can claim a LOS and a First Fire -2 DRM for non-Assault Movement in the open. ... If the firer traces his LOS to the hex center, it must cross a bypassed hexside (thus usually qualifying for a -2 DRM for Non-Assault Movement in Open Ground) before reaching that hex center or the LOS is blocked.
And perhaps this is exactly what other posters have been arguing all along and I've been slow in coming around to it.
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If we accept an interpretation similar to the above and the following HASL hexes appeared on a geoboard,
then road-bypass movement in X18 becomes problematic, as you can't bypass the X18/X19 water obstacle hexside. (Never mind the idea of having to pay 2 + 6x the MP to do so compared with just driving straight on through if the building were absent.) [Note: I know PB has special rules for these two hexes, so I'm just speculating.]
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kcole4001
Stray Cat
My 2 cents Cdn. for what it's worth (generally less than 2c given the currency exchanges 
)
I may be oversimplifying things, but common sense dictates that the woods road example is the way to deal with it: if the target uses the road then the road depiction is used (for LOS, movement costs, etc.) just as in a woods road, if not then the target is entering the building.
Of course we will need ground level building counters (or bypassing counters more appropriately I suppose) if the target ends movement there (if we already have these I can't remember seeing them).
I fully realize the rules need to sort out any and all ambiguity since there will always be some folks who try to situationally interpret the rules to their advantage given the slightest opportunity, but I have long given up playing games with the people I am acquainted with who are prone to this behaviour.
In any event, I'd be interested in seeing the congested city block added to future maps.
Interesting maps are one of the reasons I enjoy games like this.
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In my opinion it's 3I1 which is the true anomaly. Get rid of those skinny, bypassable woods or make them extend to the hex edge and VBM freeze makes sense, but that ONE hex completely breaks the logic.
(I know, it's off topic, so feel free to ignore that aside)
)I may be oversimplifying things, but common sense dictates that the woods road example is the way to deal with it: if the target uses the road then the road depiction is used (for LOS, movement costs, etc.) just as in a woods road, if not then the target is entering the building.
Of course we will need ground level building counters (or bypassing counters more appropriately I suppose) if the target ends movement there (if we already have these I can't remember seeing them).
I fully realize the rules need to sort out any and all ambiguity since there will always be some folks who try to situationally interpret the rules to their advantage given the slightest opportunity, but I have long given up playing games with the people I am acquainted with who are prone to this behaviour.
In any event, I'd be interested in seeing the congested city block added to future maps.
Interesting maps are one of the reasons I enjoy games like this.
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In my opinion it's 3I1 which is the true anomaly. Get rid of those skinny, bypassable woods or make them extend to the hex edge and VBM freeze makes sense, but that ONE hex completely breaks the logic.
(I know, it's off topic, so feel free to ignore that aside)
BattleSchool
Elder Member
Although this may address the road in 8AA1, I don't think it'll answer some of the questions Tom's imagined cityscape raises. If a vehicle enters AA1 across a road hexside and decides to remain in the hex (without entering the building), most would agree that the vehicle would be positioned on the AA1-AA2 hexside with its CAFP pointing to either Z1 or BB1.
Hex B2 on the Tom's map below is analgous to 8AA1. Assume a vehicle Starts in Bypass along the B2-B3 hexside (with its CAFP at B2-B3-C3). How does it get from B2 to C4 using the road?
Does it have to pivot around four hexsides of C3 (IAW B23.4), expending 8 MP in the process? That seems excessive, but if the road depiction in C3 is supposed to be treated as a Narrow Street, how else could a vehicle hang a right and head down C-Street?
Or could a vehicle enter C3 directly from B2 and pivot to face C4-D3 for 2 MP, before entering D4 for 3 MP?
IOW, how would movement along the C-road differ from movement along a Narrow Street, which is effectively how vehicular movement in 8AA1 tends to be treated?
How about LOS? If a vehicle is on the road in C3, where is LOS drawn from? I'm thinking it would have to be a CAFP if we continue to treat these roads as Narrow Streets. But if a vehicle is allowed to remain on the road (as opposed to on a hexside), must LOS to the vehicle be traced to the centre dot? If not, to where?
Bill Kohler
Senior Member
I think there're two approaches to doing Tom's Dense City map idea: either you try to extend the current rules with a minimum of modification, or you start from scratch
If the latter, then I think one possibility is to allow for more than one Location in the ground level of each City Street hex. You could do this by defining a new terrain type, call it "City Street". You could make the street illustration black to differentiate it from gray paved roads, and you could also add tiny manhole-like circles on the road to mark LOS aim points. [For instance, in hex C3 of Tom's Dense City map you might have three LOS aim points for vehicles on the road depending on whether it faces left, or right, or down.] You could create some simple counters to mark units that're on the road (with the presumption that vehicles always are on the road unless marked, and that Infantry is always in the building unless marked). The direction the vehicle is facing would determine which LOS aim point the vehicle is considered to be at. You could also have a non-vehicle LOS mark on the City Street (maybe a "plus sign") for Infantry on the road--depending on how fine you want to handle the "Where in the hex am I?" question. [In hex C3, this Infantry LOS aim point might be at the center of the T in the road. (E.g., Infantry on the street are always considered to be at the center point of the street, unless two streets meet in which case they're always considered to be at the intersection.)] To keep things simpler, you could always ensure that the hex center dot of each City Street hex is inside the building illustration, so that all LOS lines to units in the building are defined by that. And perhaps you permit Infantry Dash for, say 1 MF across City Streets.
If designing new City Street terrain, then looking at Tom's map, I wouldn't have Narrow Streets like E1-D1 intermixing closely with the City Street terrain for that might beg a lot of questions; and I wouldn't draw the streets to cut through hexsides like the K2-K5 road does: I'd scoot the road to either the left or the right (like the C3-C8 street) to avoid that confusing situation.
Just some thoughts . . .
If the latter, then I think one possibility is to allow for more than one Location in the ground level of each City Street hex. You could do this by defining a new terrain type, call it "City Street". You could make the street illustration black to differentiate it from gray paved roads, and you could also add tiny manhole-like circles on the road to mark LOS aim points. [For instance, in hex C3 of Tom's Dense City map you might have three LOS aim points for vehicles on the road depending on whether it faces left, or right, or down.] You could create some simple counters to mark units that're on the road (with the presumption that vehicles always are on the road unless marked, and that Infantry is always in the building unless marked). The direction the vehicle is facing would determine which LOS aim point the vehicle is considered to be at. You could also have a non-vehicle LOS mark on the City Street (maybe a "plus sign") for Infantry on the road--depending on how fine you want to handle the "Where in the hex am I?" question. [In hex C3, this Infantry LOS aim point might be at the center of the T in the road. (E.g., Infantry on the street are always considered to be at the center point of the street, unless two streets meet in which case they're always considered to be at the intersection.)] To keep things simpler, you could always ensure that the hex center dot of each City Street hex is inside the building illustration, so that all LOS lines to units in the building are defined by that. And perhaps you permit Infantry Dash for, say 1 MF across City Streets.
If designing new City Street terrain, then looking at Tom's map, I wouldn't have Narrow Streets like E1-D1 intermixing closely with the City Street terrain for that might beg a lot of questions; and I wouldn't draw the streets to cut through hexsides like the K2-K5 road does: I'd scoot the road to either the left or the right (like the C3-C8 street) to avoid that confusing situation.
Just some thoughts . . .
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Wayne
Doing Plenty, Kinda Slow
... one possibility is to allow for more than one Location ...
Make that "..more than on position..." maybe. "Location" opens a can-o-worms.
[IIRC, "position" is not an index term, but is kind of an informal/notional thing and is kinda necessary. One example: Crest Status is not a Location but a conceptual position within one.]
Re something like the probably enjoyable map tech Tom would like to try, I expect that would require rules and probably marker counters too. But IDK.
Re getting a similar game effect Now, maybe just use existing non-narrow-street boards and prohibit Bypass via SSR. IIRC, there's an old ASLRB footnote suggestion to that effect.
A Tom-board would likely be more fun, though.
Make that "..more than on position..." maybe. "Location" opens a can-o-worms.
[IIRC, "position" is not an index term, but is kind of an informal/notional thing and is kinda necessary. One example: Crest Status is not a Location but a conceptual position within one.]
Re something like the probably enjoyable map tech Tom would like to try, I expect that would require rules and probably marker counters too. But IDK.
Re getting a similar game effect Now, maybe just use existing non-narrow-street boards and prohibit Bypass via SSR. IIRC, there's an old ASLRB footnote suggestion to that effect.
A Tom-board would likely be more fun, though.
board 8 annoys me period especially the horrible castle artwork...