Fear and Loathing and the Existential Angst of 8AA1

[Tuomo]

On the other hand, 8AA1 is one hex out of 41000 hexes on the geoboards, or 0.0024% of them. Turning a blind eye on this one hex and letting players come to an amicable solution between them should a vehicle ever want to end its MPh in it seems to me an excusable approach in this case. ... But we'll see how MMP responds to the Q&A.

Except if the rules for 8AA1 are clarified, then the dense urban example I posted becomes viable.

The point of that example is to show that old world city blocks sometimes were like nuts that had to be cracked. Continuous outer shell of buildings and High Walls, no easy access to the more-open interior, which itself often featured high walls that broke up the land into various back yards.

This kind of thing really isnt represented much (if at all) in ASL, and IMO it'd be right up our alley (so to speak) to depict this in a geoboard or two. It's a valid and Old School tactical situation.

Can this be done without sussing out the details of hexes like 8AA1? Sure, but it wouldn't be as good, IMO. Part of the nature of these Old World cities was their density. Like any terrain, it'd be nice to have the rules support for using it.

 

[GeorgeBates]

In all my years we have played it with the moving player "Declaring" upon entry of a Road/Building hex if the unit was 'using the road' OR 'entering the building'. This declaration was the basis used for any MF/MP cost as well as Defensive Fire modifiers. Still used the center dot or spine Vertex for Line of Fire.

Simple and easy to determine.

I'm with Sarge.

 

[Bill Kohler]

In all my years we have played it with the moving player "Declaring" upon entry of a Road/Building hex if the unit was 'using the road' OR 'entering the building'. This declaration was the basis used for any MF/MP cost as well as Defensive Fire modifiers. Still used the center dot or spine Vertex for Line of Fire.

I like this approach but I don't understand your "spine Vertex" remark: are you saying you've treated road movement as if the unit were on the hexside (like VBM)?

I think for simplicity I'd suggest that if a vehicle is using road movement, then shots against it aim at the center dot and treat the building as not being there (e.g., no TEM/no LOS obstruction).

 

[Bill Kohler]

Except if the rules for 8AA1 are clarified, then the dense urban example I posted becomes viable.

The point of that example is to show that old world city blocks sometimes were like nuts that had to be cracked. Continuous outer shell of buildings and High Walls, no easy access to the more-open interior, which itself often featured high walls that broke up the land into various back yards.

I love your idea: "dense-urban terrain" rules would be a cool addition to ASL. But I'm not sure linking 8AA1 to "dense urban" rules would be the best way to get there: 8AA1 doesn't have the feel of dense urban terrain.

A better solution might be the direct approach: e.g., a team comes up with a new rules section with a new type of road depiction (black colored roads instead of gray). Then they can design the rules from the ground up instead of having to shoehorn it in under the rubric of 8AA1.

Despite the infrequency of the 8AA1 terrain, it would be nice to have the rules for it rectified as well, but I'd understand if MMP didn't move earth and sky to make it happen.

 

[sswann]

I like this approach but I don't understand your "spine Vertex" remark: are you saying you've treated road movement as if the unit were on the hexside (like VBM)?

For vehicles in building bypass the vertex of two hexsides (spines) may be used as the aiming point for Defensive Fire.

A6.12 ATYPICAL LOS: Occasionally, the rules will specify that an entire hexside, part of a hexside, or a vertex be used for tracing LOS to/from a firer/target instead of the hex center dot. This occurs during Road use (4.132), Bypass (4.34, D2.32), Climbing (B11.42), Underbelly Hits (D4.3), Snap Shot (8.15), and movement between Rowhouses (B23.71).

 

[Gordon]

I would think that a reasonable interpretation would be that if the LOS crosses the road depiction before the building depiction then a non-bypass vehicle can be "hit", otherwise the building blocks LOS. Normal bypass rules would apply if the vehicle is actually bypassing the hex. But I'm a (old) noob at this game ...

 

[Bill Kohler]

There've been many ideas mentioned for how to handle a vehicle in 8AA1:

--treat it as being in-bypass (either by forcing it to pay bypass costs from the get-go, or by mentally nudging it onto the hexside if it's fired upon).
--only allow a vehicle to stop in the hex if it enters the building via B23.41.
--treat 8AA1 like a woods-road hex (with the building being the "woods").
--only allow shots if the LOS crosses the road before touching the building.
--allow LOS to be traced to any point on the road.
--treat the road as an additional quasi-location within the hex.
--treat the building as being "functionally nonexistent" for shots vs. a vehicle on the road.
--use Q5.5.
--use Narrow Street rules.

(I don't envy Perry on this one.)

 

[Tuomo]

There've been many ideas mentioned for how to handle a vehicle in 8AA1

Reissue board 8 without it

 

[Gordon]

Reissue board 8 without it

 

[GeorgeBates]

Reissue board 8 without it

Toothpaste is out of the tube. We'll find a way to cope.

 

[Brad M-V]

VBM uses the hexside as the location of a bypassing unit because the center dot isn't the unit's true location within the hex, obviously. So, it's a LOS mechanic that properly clarifies the right location of a unit within the hex. Roads and buildings have their own depictions defining their location within a hex, but where exactly on the road depiction is it if the road depiction raps around multiple sides of the hex building?

A unit's location on that road depiction is indicated with a counter similar in design to a crest marker which marks three hexsides. If that LOS to/from the road depiction also crosses (or would cross if extended further along that LOS) any of those three hexsides (unobstructed), then the LOS is effective. When entering/leaving a hex on the road depiction, the hexside crossed is automatically one of the three hexsides used that turn (moving player chooses the three hexsides). The unit on the road can change the three hexsides defining it's location on any of the following turns if it remains in motion or later becomes mobile again...

 

[GeorgeBates]

VBM uses the hexside as the location of a bypassing unit because the center dot isn't the unit's true location within the hex, obviously. So, it's a LOS mechanic that properly clarifies the right location of a unit within the hex. Roads and buildings have their own depictions defining their location within a hex, but where exactly on the road depiction is it if the road depiction raps around multiple sides of the hex building?

LOS is traced to the center dot, except in case of a snap shot. Don't try to pinpoint locations to features within the hex, that is not how it works. It is enough to know that the unit is moving on the road or paying 2 MF to enter the building. In both cases, draw LOS to the center dot.

 

[Vinnie]

LOS is traced to the center dot, except in case of a snap shot. Don't try to pinpoint locations to features within the hex, that is not how it works. It is enough to know that the unit is moving on the road or paying 2 MF to enter the building. In both cases, draw LOS to the center dot.

Exceot, that if the unit is moving along the road, it you can draw LOS to the road itself as it crosses the hexside. Something that folk seem to forget about.
A4.132
If the target enters at the road rate, the firer has the option of tracing LOS to either: a) the hex center dot, or b) the point where the hexside crossed intersects the road used. If the LOS to one target point is blocked, the firer can still fire at the other with no additional penalty.

 

[GeorgeBates]

Exceot, that if the unit is moving along the road, it you can draw LOS to the road itself as it crosses the hexside. Something that folk seem to forget about.
A4.132
If the target enters at the road rate, the firer has the option of tracing LOS to either: a) the hex center dot, or b) the point where the hexside crossed intersects the road used. If the LOS to one target point is blocked, the firer can still fire at the other with no additional penalty.

Correct, and thanks for noting the omission. Focus of my response was on the interior of the hex, where there is only one choice.

 

[Tuomo]

if the unit is moving along the road, it you can draw LOS to the road itself as it crosses the hexside. Something that folk seem to forget about.
A4.132

For infantry only, no?

 

[GeorgeBates]

For infantry only, no?

As Vinnie noted, A4.132 says, "target," not specifically infantry unit or vehicle.

 

[Bill Kohler]

For infantry only, no?

As Vinnie noted, A4.132 says, "target," not specifically infantry unit or vehicle.

An interesting question.

4. INFANTRY MOVEMENT
. . .
4.132 ROAD: [1] Infantry entering a hex via a road hexside must pay either the road entry cost or the cost of other terrain in the hex. [2] Road movement costs for Infantry are not cumulative with that of other terrain in the same hex (except for SMOKE). [3] If Infantry pays the cost of other terrain in the hex, it is considered in that terrain and avoids FFMO DRM unless that other terrain is Open Ground. [4] If any LOS Hindrance (such as SMOKE) or Artificial Terrain (such as AFV/wreck) is present, FFMO is negated even though the unit uses Road movement. [5] Otherwise, if it pays only the road entry cost, it is subject to FFMO DRM (4.6) in that hex if the LOS can be traced to either of the two target points (a/b below) in that hex without crossing an obstruction in that hex. [6] If the target enters at the road rate, the firer has the option of tracing LOS to either: a) the hex center dot, or b) the point where the hexside crossed intersects the road used. [7] If the LOS to one target point is blocked, the firer can still fire at the other with no additional penalty. (See Examples at right.)

The title of the section is "Infantry Movement". And A4.132 mentions Infantry exclusively in the first three sentences. Then the "unit" and "it" in the fourth and fifth sentences are obviously referring to "Infantry". And the fourth and fifth sentence also talk about FFMO, which is for Infantry, not vehicles. And it's the fifth sentence that first mentions to two target points (a) and (b). And the determiner "the" at the start of the sixth sentence (instead of "a") also appears to refer to a (previously mentioned) antecedent, which could only be referring to "Infantry".*

I can't see how the sixth sentence means to suddenly include vehicles.

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* - In English, you generally use "a" the first time you introduce a new subject, then "the" after that: A man sat in a rowboat under a wintry sky. A fish jumped nearby, close to the boat. Quickly the man took out a fishing rod and cast it toward the fish. Then the man held the rod steady and waited.
And I think the only reason the language in the rule changed from "Infantry/unit/it" to "the target" was for greater clarity when it was placed in opposition to "the firer".

 

[GeorgeBates]

If the authors had meant only infantry targets, they would have said "infantry target." Instead, they said "target." Chapter A rules apply equally to vehicles unless exceptions or other rules specifically contradict them.

 

[Eagle4ty]

If the authors had meant only infantry targets, they would have said "infantry target." Instead, they said "target." Chapter A rules apply equally to vehicles unless exceptions or other rules specifically contradict them.

Tuomo is correct that it applies only to infantry as per B3.3 "...The possible target points are increased when firing at an Infantry unit using the road movement rate in a combination road/Non-Open Ground terrain hex (as per A4.132). "

 

[GeorgeBates]

Tuomo is correct that it applies only to infantry as per B3.3 "...The possible target points are increased when firing at an Infantry unit using the road movement rate in a combination road/Non-Open Ground terrain hex (as per A4.132). "

Nice catch! Shame on me for not remembering that when I've been the one saying that we look at A4.132 and B3.3 as the proper rules to apply here.