Fear and Loathing and the Existential Angst of 8AA1

GeorgeBates

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What happens if a vehicle uses road movement rate to enter the hex and ends its MPh there: does it receive building TEM? Is it in the LOS of a viewer "on the opposite side" of the building from it? I don't know how to answer those questions.
Per B23.41, only a fully-tracked CT, BU AFV without riders could end its MPh in 8AA1, 5I9 or other such hexes without using VBM. A CT BU AFV that did so would have to take a Bog Check DR and risk landing in the cellar. If not in the cellar, then it will receive the +2 TEM in the DFPh. Addendum: After entering the hex via the road, in order to be able end its MPh in the hex, such an AFV would also have to have half its MP remaining.

Any other vehicle entering the hex using the road movement rate would have to have enough MP to leave the hex, or it could not enter.

LOS will be drawn to the center dot in all cases except VBM or a snap shot. Look for obstacles/hindrances between the viewer/firer and the center dot (the second A4.132 example makes this clear).

Board 8 has existed since GI: Anvil of Victory (and board 5 is of even earlier vintage), so it is unlikely the ASL authors did not consider the implications of roads in building hexes when they wrote A4.132 and B3.3.

If anyone has doubts, put a list of Yes/No questions in an e-mail to ASL Q&A, and we'll all know the answer when we get a Perry sez. Until then, make sure that opponents have the same understanding of how these hexes should be played, and be emotionally prepared for the Q&A reply to tell us that we have it wrong. ;)
 
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Tuomo

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8 has existed since GI: Anvil of Victory (and board 5 is of even earlier vintage), so it is unlikely the ASL authors did not consider the implications of roads in building hexes when they wrote A4.132 and B3.3.
Not sure I agree with that. Look back at the first post in the thread. Thirteen examples of this kind of thing in the first 8 boards, then nothing until board 40. I suspect 8AA1 is the ASL equivalent of a platypus. Or the final episode of Seinfeld. Something we're better off not asking too many questions about.
 

GeorgeBates

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Not sure I agree with that. Look back at the first post in the thread. Thirteen examples of this kind of thing in the first 8 boards, then nothing until board 40. I suspect 8AA1 is the ASL equivalent of a platypus. Or the final episode of Seinfeld. Something we're better off not asking too many questions about.
Indeed, one does wonder about the gap - the answer may never be known. And yet, with all those examples from the SL boards, it's hard to believe the ASLRB authors were not accommodating roads in building hexes when they wrote A4.132 and B3.3.

Having a road pass across more than one side of a building hex seems perfectly natural. Roads pass close by houses and barns all the time, so now that Tom has called attention to it, the uniqueness of that hex in ASL is striking. Bring on more of them. Disagreements on relevant rules and their application can be resolved.

A challenge for Tom - draw a hex with a road fork in it, have the roads cross three (or even four!) sides, and place buildings between the tines.
 

Bill Kohler

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Proposed rules question to MMP:

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Map 8, hex AA1 has a perplexing map feature of a road passing through a hex that also has a building.
The artwork clearly doesn’t fit the definition of a Narrow Street (B31.1).

Questions:
(1) Can a Truck enter 8AA1 from Z1 (without VBM) by paying the final 1/2 MP of its MPh to do so? If it does, is it still considered to be on the road?

(2) Is B23.41 the only way that a vehicle can enter 8AA1 with the intention of ending its MPh there?

(3) If a vehicle is passing through 8AA1 along the road during its MPh and is fired upon while in that hex:
(a) Can it receive building TEM? Does the answer depend on the specific LOS as it enters the hex?
(b) Can LOS to the vehicle possibly be obstructed by the building illustration in 8AA1?
(c) To what point in the hex is the LOS to the vehicle drawn?
(d) If the vehicle is eliminated and replaced by a wreck, is the wreck considered to be in the building or on the road?

(4) An infantry unit enters 8AA1 at the road rate, and is fired upon during its MPh:
(a) Does it receive building TEM? Does the answer depend on the specific LOS as it enters the hex?
(b) Can the building illustration in 8AA1 possibly block LOS to the infantry unit?

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Does that cover it?
 
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Tuomo

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Bill - some suggestions.

1) Remove "perplexing". We don't want to make the designer of 8AA1 feel bad.

2) ok, seriously. In your #1, I wouldn't complicate it by mentioning the "final" 1/2 MP; just ask if it can enter at the road movement rate and if so, where is it and what kind of TEM it receives if targeted there.

2a) In for a penny, in for a pound. Might as well ask if and AFV can receive HD benefits if in such a hex (not using VBM, but behind a wall that might exist in some future mapboard) but on the road. Or MUST it receive HD as opposed to having the option of claiming the TEM of the Building?

2b) Lord help us, what if such a wall in question 2a was Bocage? How does that change things?

2c) you know what, forget 2a and 2b. This is complicated enough without trying to handle hexes that don't exist.

3) I'd suggest adding "without using VBM" somewhere in your question 2

4) I think your question 4a is already covered in the rules that we've discussed in this thread.

5) Are Riders affected by any of this?

I honestly don't know if MMP will choose to go there and deal with this Hex Of Annoyance. But you might as well ask; I think clarifying these things opens up some interesting map possibilities. But there might also be some chaos involved with that very thing - what would Roads through Hut hexes look like, rules-wise. What if the Road only enters the hex but doesn't pass through. Does it matter if the Road enters the Building. Etc etc etc.
 

Bill Kohler

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Revised Draft Q&A:

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Map 8, hex AA1 has an intriguing map feature of a road passing through a hex that also has a building. The artwork clearly doesn’t fit the definition of a Narrow Street (B31.1).

Questions:
(1) Is B23.41 the only way that a vehicle can enter 8AA1 with the intention of ending its MPh there?

(2) A vehicle is passing through 8AA1 paying the road movement rate (without using VBM) and is fired upon while in that hex:
(a) Is it considered to be on the road or in the building?
(b) To what point in the hex is the LOS to the vehicle drawn?
(c) Can LOS to the vehicle possibly be obstructed by the building illustration in 8AA1?
(d) Does the vehicle receive building TEM? Does the answer depend on the specific LOS as it enters hex 8AA1?
(e) Does the answer to any of the above change if the vehicle ends its MPh in the hex, whether stopped or in Motion?
(f) If the vehicle is eliminated and replaced by a wreck, is the wreck considered to be in the building or on the road?
(g) What happens to any riders if the vehicle ends-its-MPh/stops/is-rendered-immobile while in the hex?

(3) An infantry unit enters 8AA1 at the road rate, and is fired upon during its MPh:
(a) The road isn't shown as entering the building. Do we nonetheless treat infantry entering 8AA1 along the road just as we would treat infantry entering 5I9 along the road (A4.132)?

-----------------------

Anticipated Answers:
(1) No.
(2a) On the road.
(2b) Center dot.
(2c) No.
(2d) No. No.
(2e) No.
(2f) On the road.
(2g) The same as would happen in any other road hex.
(3a) Yes.
 
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Bill Kohler

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On a tangential matter, I was thinking about the A5/A6 geoboard hexside road and drafted a Q&A. But I can't see the official answers to these questions being anything other than no.

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Geo-boards have roads that go along the A5/A6 and GG5/GG6 hexsides.

(1) A5 has a friendly vehicle and 3 friendly squads that entered it via the road during this MPh. If a vehicle or a squad moves along the road into A6, does it pay overstacking MP/MF penalties?

(2) A5 has a friendly vehicle in Motion on the road, so does A6. Do the overstacking hit possibilities of A5.132 apply to a shot versus one of the two hexes?

(3) If two AFVs of a Platoon move so that one is on the road in A5 and the other is on the road in A6, would that affect either of the above answers?

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Answered as expected: Perry Sez.
 
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Stewart

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On a tangential matter, I was thinking about the A5/A6 geoboard hexside road and drafted a Q&A. But I can't see the official answers to these questions being anything other than no.

Geo-boards have roads that go along the A5/A6 and GG5/GG6 hexsides.
Aren't they defined as ROAD Hexes? That's all you need to know.

HEEEEEEE haaaaaAAAAAWWWWWWWW
 

bprobst

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Just to clarify my earlier statements regarding this hex:

- Obviously, if you ignore the road, 8AA1 is a perfectly ordinary building hex. As I stated, a unit is either in the building (and thus qualifies for building TEM) or it is using Bypass Movement around the building and thus is in Open Ground, and suffers penalties (if any) accordingly. There's no mystery about any of that.

- However, the problems arise when you try and use Road Movement, i.e., stay on the road while entering the hex (or remaining in the hex if a Vehicle using VBM). How do we know this is true? Because if it weren't true, there would be no need for rule Q5.5 to have been presented as some special case. Q5.5 even uses the word "unique" to describe the PB hexes (somewhat inaccurately as it turns out, but we understand what is meant). Any argument that you think can be made to make 8AA1 "work" could be equally applied to the PB hexes, but if they could be so applied, Q5.5 would be completely pointless, even misleading.

The obvious solution would be to insert (some form of) Q5.5 into Chapter B. This would not only resolve all of the problems with 8AA1, it would allow new maps to use similar terrain features where deemed appropriate. MMP have traditionally preferred the "if we shut our eyes and stop our ears people will stop asking about it" approach to any of the several problems existing in the current Chapter B, so I'm not holding my breath for such a revision to appear any time soon.
 

Bill Kohler

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On the other hand, 8AA1 is one hex out of 41000 hexes on the geoboards, or 0.0024% of them. Turning a blind eye on this one hex and letting players come to an amicable solution between them should a vehicle ever want to end its MPh in it seems to me an excusable approach in this case. ... But we'll see how MMP responds to the Q&A.
 

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Regardless of how this particular hex plays out, I'd love to see "denser" cities depicted more.
 

sswann

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In all my years we have played it with the moving player "Declaring" upon entry of a Road/Building hex if the unit was 'using the road' OR 'entering the building'. This declaration was the basis used for any MF/MP cost as well as Defensive Fire modifiers. Still used the center dot or spine Vertex for Line of Fire.

Simple and easy to determine.
 
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