Counter Counting (Reducing the Fog of War)

Pip Smith

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Just wondering, does anyone put much effort into trying to keep track of what is under the oppositions dummy counters?
Is it worth the mental effort to try to keep track of what is what?

And if you do, are any good techniques for mentally trying to keep track of what could be what? (I have enough hassles with trying to remember what is under my own stacks :) )
 

Actionjick

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Just wondering, does anyone put much effort into trying to keep track of what is under the oppositions dummy counters?
Is it worth the mental effort to try to keep track of what is what?

And if you do, are any good techniques for mentally trying to keep track of what could be what? (I have enough hassles with trying to remember what is under my own stacks :) )
I put zero effort into it. I preferred to just get into the gunnin. Excogitating is for when you don't have an opponent sitting across from you. 😉
 

Robin Reeve

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I don't do it a lot.
Sometimes, however, when there remains just one concealed stack, I try to remember what was revealed up to then.
But I have met players who take a lot of pain to count the concealment markers.
It is a reason why I would plead for some variation to the number of concealment counters in an OB - of course the exact number being unknown of the opponent.
 

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Kind of situation dependent. If I'm attacking, I generally count what's been revealed and what I don't know about yet in my opponent's OB to determine how aggressive I can be based on what's left to find. Also a big fan of bump scouting with half squads if my OB allows the resources.
 

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I usually do it but only at the start. If you have a HIP Gun, I can usually assess where that is too based on setup. When playing someone I know, I can usually get hips within one hex. When playing someone I don't know, I can generally get into a ring of about 3 - 5 hexes. -- jim
 

Actionjick

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I usually do it but only at the start. If you have a HIP Gun, I can usually assess where that is too based on setup. When playing someone I know, I can usually get hips within one hex. When playing someone I don't know, I can generally get into a ring of about 3 - 5 hexes. -- jim
Ring of Fire?
 

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Scenario Designers, this is what the cloaking box was made for.
 

Pip Smith

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I usually do it but only at the start. If you have a HIP Gun, I can usually assess where that is too based on setup. When playing someone I know, I can usually get hips within one hex. When playing someone I don't know, I can generally get into a ring of about 3 - 5 hexes. -- jim
That's interesting. So I am assuming they have their own sort of concious or unconcious personal pattern that they are using in their placements that helps you become more accurate.

If you were to guess what made it more accurate to predict the location when you know the player, what would you say?
What factors set them apart? (risk tolerance/how far forward? preference for certain terrain? sneakiness? :)
 

Sparafucil3

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That's interesting. So I am assuming they have their own sort of concious or unconcious personal pattern that they are using in their placements that helps you become more accurate.

If you were to guess what made it more accurate to predict the location when you know the player, what would you say?
What factors set them apart? (risk tolerance/how far forward? preference for certain terrain? sneakiness? :)
It's more about knowing a players level of reading a map. The terrain is the canvas on which we paint our master pieces. Players I don't know, I am not sure how well they can read a map, how well they might predict how the game will play out. Playing someone who knows little about the game is actually harder IMO. Those types of players are just not able to identify the key parts of the map and how to cover the terrain. This makes them more unpredictable. Against good players, they can read a map, know where the high-speed avenues to the VC area are, know where they should place the Gun to cover those key choke points, how to funnel an attack into that kill zone, how to cover the Gun with Infantry, etc. I doubt I am the only one who can and does do it. I can still be surprised from time to time, but it doesn't happen often.

IMO, ATTACKERS should stop worrying about where HIP's and Concealed units are and just get on with it. Make your opponent put it on the board. Don't give him a super juicy shot, but if he is going to hold fire waiting on a juicy shot, he should find himself facing a hellacious task getting out of his position as I surround him with HS's and Squads making his departure a challenge. One the HIP's and the Concealed stuff is on the board, you can sort out the rest as you move along. Respect the unknown, just don't let it paralyze you. -- jim
 

Carln0130

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It's more about knowing a players level of reading a map. The terrain is the canvas on which we paint our master pieces. Players I don't know, I am not sure how well they can read a map, how well they might predict how the game will play out. Playing someone who knows little about the game is actually harder IMO. Those types of players are just not able to identify the key parts of the map and how to cover the terrain. This makes them more unpredictable. Against good players, they can read a map, know where the high-speed avenues to the VC area are, know where they should place the Gun to cover those key choke points, how to funnel an attack into that kill zone, how to cover the Gun with Infantry, etc. I doubt I am the only one who can and does do it. I can still be surprised from time to time, but it doesn't happen often.

IMO, ATTACKERS should stop worrying about where HIP's and Concealed units are and just get on with it. Make your opponent put it on the board. Don't give him a super juicy shot, but if he is going to hold fire waiting on a juicy shot, he should find himself facing a hellacious task getting out of his position as I surround him with HS's and Squads making his departure a challenge. One the HIP's and the Concealed stuff is on the board, you can sort out the rest as you move along. Respect the unknown, just don't let it paralyze you. -- jim
Yupper.
 

bendizoid

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It's more about knowing a players level of reading a map. The terrain is the canvas on which we paint our master pieces. Players I don't know, I am not sure how well they can read a map, how well they might predict how the game will play out. Playing someone who knows little about the game is actually harder IMO. Those types of players are just not able to identify the key parts of the map and how to cover the terrain. This makes them more unpredictable. Against good players, they can read a map, know where the high-speed avenues to the VC area are, know where they should place the Gun to cover those key choke points, how to funnel an attack into that kill zone, how to cover the Gun with Infantry, etc. I doubt I am the only one who can and does do it. I can still be surprised from time to time, but it doesn't happen often.

IMO, ATTACKERS should stop worrying about where HIP's and Concealed units are and just get on with it. Make your opponent put it on the board. Don't give him a super juicy shot, but if he is going to hold fire waiting on a juicy shot, he should find himself facing a hellacious task getting out of his position as I surround him with HS's and Squads making his departure a challenge. One the HIP's and the Concealed stuff is on the board, you can sort out the rest as you move along. Respect the unknown, just don't let it paralyze you. -- jim
Seems fair to call it a meta game, a fun one. One interesting facet is sometimes the best hex is not the best hex if the opponent knows or suspects. Another is sometimes it’s better to stay HIP if said opponent is too fearful. But then on the other hand the longer it stays HIP the less shots. Its fair to say your ‘ASL personality’ and estimation of your opponent’s will be a factor in your decisions. It’s a cool meta because I’ve been playing you guys for 35+ years now and personality makes ASL fun. If I’m attacking I usually act as if they don’t exist (kinda) because I don’t want to be slowed down by ghosts but I will keep AFVs a little more spread out to avoid a multi-kill out of the blue.
 
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von Marwitz

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Usually I do the counter counting when looking at an opponent's setup. It works quite well for normal sized scenarios. For big scenarios with a lot of Dummies the gain is more limited.

The counter counting will often tell you if your opponent deployed. You might be able to glean, if it is a HS or a full squad which is HIP with a Panzerschreck.

Based on the counter counting and the setup of the opponent, I then think how I would have set up the given units in the positions he elected. This provides a pretty good picture of what to expect. Of course, it is more an art than a science. I am rarely 100% correct in my 'predictions', but often come close to determining the positions of key weapons and leaders.

As for HIP stuff: I do not totally ignore HIP stuff as some here seem to advocate. Instead I think about the areas which might be well suited for HIPsters and might allocate a HS to such areas for speeding up the scouting. That said, not too much time should be spent on that. Losing to much time to be on the 'safe side' might cost one more dearly than to lose a unit to a HIPster.

von Marwitz
 

Actionjick

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Usually I do the counter counting when looking at an opponent's setup. It works quite well for normal sized scenarios. For big scenarios with a lot of Dummies the gain is more limited.

The counter counting will often tell you if your opponent deployed. You might be able to glean, if it is a HS or a full squad which is HIP with a Panzerschreck.

Based on the counter counting and the setup of the opponent, I then think how I would have set up the given units in the positions he elected. This provides a pretty good picture of what to expect. Of course, it is more an art than a science. I am rarely 100% correct in my 'predictions', but often come close to determining the positions of key weapons and leaders.

As for HIP stuff: I do not totally ignore HIP stuff as some here seem to advocate. Instead I think about the areas which might be well suited for HIPsters and might allocate a HS to such areas for speeding up the scouting. That said, not too much time should be spent on that. Losing to much time to be on the 'safe side' might cost one more dearly than to lose a unit to a HIPster.

von Marwitz
I would look over the boards briefly, the opposing OOB a little more thoroughly and my OOB a bit longer. Then setup and start gunnin'. The unknown revealed itself much sooner that way!😉😉

I don't recall us really spending a lot of time studying the scenario. We spent much, much more time buying units for DYOs. Then again we both viewed that as the most fun part of DYO.
 

Pip Smith

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Usually I do the counter counting when looking at an opponent's setup.
It was actually one of your earlier AAR's and posts where you did a full breakdown on this that inspired me to do this post. The level of detail and thinking you put into it was mindblowing. Hence the question. :)

For everyone elses benefit, have a read: Little Principles To Better Your Setup
 

von Marwitz

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I had forgotten about the thread you have linked and read through it again. Quite a nice discussion.

That's why GameSquad is fine: There are lots of gems to be found here. Sure, they will mostly be forgotten over the time but at least you can dig them up better than trying the same with FaceBook.

von Marwitz
 
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