Contested Lands (1948 Arab Israeli) module

[kynken]

I am a proponent of expanding ASL into the 1970s. Technology did not expand that much from the Sherman to the Patton tanks, just bigger guns-thicker armor. ATGMs work best in desert terrain where the signal lines of the missiles cannot be broken by rubble and water First and second-generation system don't make that much difference. Sensors and fire control were mostly analog in that time period. The major battles fought in the fifties, sixties and seventies use a lot of WW2 weapons because they were available. There are only so many WW2 battles that can be fought, expansion into other wars are inevenable.

Expand if it is done properly. Well thought out rules and major playtesting. I only know of one outlet that have released versions of ASL for Vietnam to modern Ukraine. However, doing that with a couple pages of "rules" and no real play testing.

 

[kynken]

Apparently you don’t know these guys. Inconceivable also that you are equating an MMP production with CH.

CH isn't even in the conversation. I am all for MMP expanding into 1948 and the Spanish civil war. Don't really have to expand much because the technology in 1948 isn't too much more than 1945. I like Forgotten War. I know MMP will do it proper. Unlike CH, who is already making counters for the war in Ukraine with, what, six pages of "rules".

 

[David Goodwin]

You have a point, but you get what is on the market. You can argue that CH is doing it for the money, but it is under the frame work of the ASL rules for combat, terrain and vehicles and people by their stuff. I agree that using ASL rules for modern warfare, with UAVs and modern ordnance is probably beyond ASL. But if people buy it they add money to the market. If you are interested in keeping ASL to only WW2 you are limiting the growth of ASL and the profit margins of Hasbro and Multi-man publishing. Avalon Hill was one of the major players in wargaming in the past, so was Simulations Publications Incorporated (SPI). Where are they now? I don't know the profit margins of CH and Multi-man Publishing but I would not think it is that great. Please note that modern weapons started with machineguns in WW1, followed on by machine pistols and finally assault rifles by the Germans. The concept of a turreted tank started before WW2. Much of what was developed in the 1950s, both ground, air and submarines were based on German WW2 technology. So basically the M-60 tank is an updated M-46 tank.

I would argue that Critical Hit and the other minor producers drive Multi-man to do things to stay in business. That is not a bad result.

 

[Jazz]

I would argue that Critical Hit and the other minor producers drive Multi-man to do things to stay in business. That is not a bad result.

At one point in time that wuz correct. No longer.

CH will throw whatever crap they come up with against the wall and then rename and jack up the price of what sticks.

 

[Psycho]

At one point in time that wuz correct. No longer.

CH will throw whatever crap they come up with against the wall and then rename and jack up the price of what sticks.

Don't look know but this is just ready for prunting! Contest of Lands the Israele-Arub 1848 module version 73! with 628 map panunls and 1200 countter sheers plus 6386 scenarios covering the six day war! act now with this special quopon and you get tripul the counters and all for only $397.99! BUT this extra special secret crouton and save 5% so act now!

 

[Eagle4ty]

Ha! I got da dubble zuper csekret kupon. Minez almost free at 5.2% uff.

 

[Old Noob]

Let's not forget that said business on DOUBLE SECRET probation.

 

[Brave Lion]

I have to disagree regarding 'flight and guidance times' for ATGW's.
In my personal experience, the amount of time for even a first generation AT guided missile to be fired, guided to, and impact its target is about the same for a projectile fired from a mortar, and in many cases, less (depending of course on the range to the target).

The frequently mentioned theory that AT guided missiles are in some way too complex to be included in the ASL game system seems to be based more upon opinion regarding enjoyment of the game rather than actual fact. Although the ATGW is a complex weapon design, the truth is that these weapons are much easier to use and far more effective than the towed AT guns that are currently in the game, and which have largely been replaced in the inventories of late 20th century armies.

Just my $.02. I think ATGM can be handled by modifying the Target Acquisition rules slightly. However, there should be a mechanic to interrupt the TH/TK sequence to enable for countermeasures. Something like an ATGM Reaction Task Check to enable Motion attempts, fire smoke dischargers, lay suppression fire on the launcher/controller, etc.

The real problem with modern combat is the introduction of helicopters in the '50s and '60s. The standard ASL air support system is too basic to handle the complexity of helicopter movement and combat. I am certain that a workable solution can be found, but it will take more effort than the generic 194X FB rules currently take.

But other than that, modern combat is remarkably similar to 1945 WWII combat.

 

[sswann]

ATGMs would be simple to emulate by slight modification of the BAZ rules to account for acquistion and extended range.

 

[Jazz]

ATGMs would be simple to emulate by slight modification of the BAZ rules to account for acquistion and extended range.

...but the extended flight time and potential small arms interdiction of the aiming unit would not be that simple to emulate.

It can be done, but at a certain point it stops being ASL.

 

[sswann]

Attached are partial ATGM rules proposed by Frank Meier.
Taken from his creative rules for Modern ASL.

3.3 ANTI TANK GUIDED MISSILES (ATGM): Anti-Tank Guided Missile launchers are found in three forms: SW, Gun or Vehicular [EXC: X6.244 for Aerial ATGM]. An ATGM has one of the following five types of guidance systems.
3.31 MANUAL CONTROL to LINE of SIGHT (MACLOS):
3.312 SEMI-AUTOMATIC CONTROL to LINE of SIGHT (SACLOS):
3.313 LASER GUIDED (LG):
3.314 RADIO CONTROLLED (RC):
3.315 FIRE-AND-FORGET (F&F): F
3.32 RANGE: Each ATGM has its own minimum and maximum range as indicated by [#-#] on the counter.
3.33 RESTRICTIONS: ATGM, regardless of type, may only attack in the PFPh and MPh/DFPh [EXC: Opportunity Fire (A7.25)]. ATGM can only attack a unit on/in a Vehicle/Pillbox/Sangar/Bunker/Building/Cave/Rubble/Bridge or these features themselves. ATGM cannot use Intensive Fire (C5.6).
3.331 BACKBLAST ZONE: All ATGM [EXC: Tube-launched ATGM (3.342)] have a backblast zone as per C12.3, just as if they were RCL.
3.3311 As Ordnance an ATGM may never fire from inside a building [EXC: Factory], rubble, pillbox, cave or vehicle [EXC: Light ATGM (3.4)].

 

[Jazz]

Attached are partial ATGM rules proposed by Frank Meier.
Taken from his creative rules for Modern ASL.

3.3 ANTI TANK GUIDED MISSILES (ATGM): Anti-Tank Guided Missile launchers are found in three forms: SW, Gun or Vehicular [EXC: X6.244 for Aerial ATGM]. An ATGM has one of the following five types of guidance systems.
3.31 MANUAL CONTROL to LINE of SIGHT (MACLOS):
3.312 SEMI-AUTOMATIC CONTROL to LINE of SIGHT (SACLOS):
3.313 LASER GUIDED (LG):
3.314 RADIO CONTROLLED (RC):
3.315 FIRE-AND-FORGET (F&F): F
3.32 RANGE: Each ATGM has its own minimum and maximum range as indicated by [#-#] on the counter.
3.33 RESTRICTIONS: ATGM, regardless of type, may only attack in the PFPh and MPh/DFPh [EXC: Opportunity Fire (A7.25)]. ATGM can only attack a unit on/in a Vehicle/Pillbox/Sangar/Bunker/Building/Cave/Rubble/Bridge or these features themselves. ATGM cannot use Intensive Fire (C5.6).
3.331 BACKBLAST ZONE: All ATGM [EXC: Tube-launched ATGM (3.342)] have a backblast zone as per C12.3, just as if they were RCL.
3.3311 As Ordnance an ATGM may never fire from inside a building [EXC: Factory], rubble, pillbox, cave or vehicle [EXC: Light ATGM (3.4)].

Like I said, at a certain point it stops being ASL....

 

[sswann]

Having been trained on bazookas (long time ago), even BAZ rockets have a "Flight Time" and could be seen in flight at medium to long ranges. So I do not see where that would be a problem in ASL with a simulated 2minutes combat time.

 

[sswann]

These portions could be omitted...
3.313 LASER GUIDED (LG):
3.314 RADIO CONTROLLED (RC):
3.315 FIRE-AND-FORGET (F&F):

so that only early ATGM could be in-game.

 

[sswann]

Without Frank's approval I cannot provide a complete manuscript of Modern ASL Rules...
BUT I do have the Nationality rules for the 1982 Falklands War if anyone wants to see them.

 

[ibncalb]

Without Frank's approval I cannot provide a complete manuscript of Modern ASL Rules...
BUT I do have the Nationality rules for the 1982 Falklands War if anyone wants to see them.

I'd love to.

 

[ibncalb]

at a certain point it stops being ASL.

Its still ASL if MMP says so.

I discussed atgms with my regular opponent today.

The TH/TK process would be straightforward.

What we thought would be interesting would be the options of the target vehicle. A motion attempt? A gun duel vs the launch unit? A NTC to react at all?

 

[PresterJohn]

There are better game systems for simulations of modern weapons and smaller scale actions. When you get away from what ASL is best at, you start making ASL look second best.

 

[JRKrejsa]

I do find the discussion interesting. Plus, development wise, I think we are still a ways out from the ‘67, ‘73, and ‘82 wars.
1948 isn’t even on preorder yet.

 

[Steve H]

I do find the discussion interesting. Plus, development wise, I think we are still a ways out from the ‘67, ‘73, and ‘82 wars.
1948 isn’t even on preorder yet.

Agreed. This is just 1948. No attack helicopters, no ATGMs, no tactical nuclear missiles. Just WWII type battles, and WWII type equipment. I am all for it.
The complaining can truly start when the saggars fly in 67/73.