Contested Lands (1948 Arab Israeli) module

[william.stoppel]

Very happy to see this module on the MMP projections list. Any details or insights would be much appreciated.

 

[Neal]

Chat from those in the know are saying it's a core module. So I guess that means orders of battle, nationality differences, Chapter H, new boards, etc.

 

[bprobst]

The critical question will be what will be the nationality counter colours? I vote for Hot Pink and Bile Green.

 

[william.stoppel]

The critical question will be what will be the nationality counter colours? I vote for Hot Pink and Bile Green.

And I vote for your revised WWW scenarios in the next journal

 

[JRKrejsa]

Chat from those in the know are saying it's a core module. So I guess that means orders of battle, nationality differences, Chapter H, new boards, etc.

Looking forward to this. But, if it has the development time of KWASL, it could be quite a while.

 

[Jazz]

Looking forward to this. But, if it has the development time of KWASL, it could be quite a while.

The fact that MMP is talking about it (as opposed to development team) is a good sign....

 

[Steve H]

They must be reasonably confident of a release if they included it as a preorder in the 2023 timeline. I know that is not a guarantee...But at least it must be close to the final stages of development. Anybody out there doing playtests?

 

[fenyan]

I believe Jackson is?

 

[SonsofUltramar]

This is the first Ive heard of that and Im really excited for that in ASL terms! Lots of fighting in that area from 1948 and beyond.

What is the scope of the module though? Only the War of Independence of 1948? Or moving further down the road into future conflicts? Centurians/Pattons vs T55/T62? Boy theres a thought for ASL!

 

[Jazz]

This is the first Ive heard of that and Im really excited for that in ASL terms! Lots of fighting in that area from 1948 and beyond.

What is the scope of the module though? Only the War of Independence of 1948? Or moving further down the road into future conflicts? Centurians/Pattons vs T55/T62? Boy theres a thought for ASL!

They could take it out to '56, possibly even '67 without having to do too much with the system. Much beyond that and it starts being something other than ASL

 

[von Marwitz]

They could take it out to '56, possibly even '67 without having to do too much with the system. Much beyond that and it starts being something other than ASL

It will be difficult to draw a precise line for the time frame in which the ASL system works fine.
Without doubt, it does for the period of 1937 to 1945.
That period is where I draw my "mental" line of preferred use of ASL.

Yet, I bought Forgotten War, will buy the upcoming Spanish Civil War module, and even the Arab/Israeli module. But this is more because they are core modules rather than anything else.

I also have my doubts if ASL core modules should cover yet more time frame before or after. In fact, I don't believe so.

von Marwitz

 

[SonsofUltramar]

Personally, I see it all as good! Its such a solid system (ASL) that the more areas we can cover the better - as that will draw in more interest when we hit on what personally interests people.

For example, some hate Deluxe, but I love the smaller scale and focus on the tactics on that level. To each their own - expanding it beyond WWII is great in my book.

I hope that, like Korea, once the core module was out scenario editors really started to run with it. I have not given my Korea games a run yet - but when I get to them, I have plenty of content to choose from - such as the recent AP that focused on the cavalry's experience in Korea.

 

[PNMarkW2]

I am oddly more interested in this module than I would have been not very long ago. I'm sure that's in part due to the general success of Forgotten War.

I personally think ASL could cover the Arab/Israeli '56 conflict okay, but have my doubts about ASL moving too far into the '60's for much of anything. That said, should MMP decide to move further forward I would consider each offering as it comes.

Of course my preference is earlier, not later, so I'm really looking forward to the Spanish Civil War module and I was sorry not to see it mentioned on the recent production forecast.

Mark

 

[PresterJohn]

The proof will be in the play testing. As long as some of the play testers are good at finding the loop holes and leveraging them.

 

[von Marwitz]

Personally, I see it all as good! Its such a solid system (ASL) that the more areas we can cover the better - as that will draw in more interest when we hit on what personally interests people.

It might be possible to adapt and expand the rules of ASL to cover a broader time frame. But this will hit limits. Before that, adaptations will make the yet already not simple rules (now, that was an understatement of sorts... ) yet more cumbersome and have some rules lose their elegance that they have without the necessary further tweaking.

Then, there are some other aspects that are difficult to reflect in ASL. An example would be combat ranges. Already within what I might call the "standard" time frame of ASL (1937-1945) the range at which vehicular combat or those with Guns is mostly lower than it has been historically. Broadening the time-frame further into the present would aggravate this issue. This is but one example.

With regard to drawing more interest: You might hit the personal interest of some people with an Arab/Israeli module. But keep in mind that there are substantial interdependencies within the ASL game system. Drawing someone into ASL because he is interested in this/these conflicts will encounter steep obstacles: First, you need the ASLRB (rules, 100 US$), then you need Beyond Valor for the system counters (another 100 US$), then you need the Arab/Israeli module - at the least (which will be another 150 US$ per estimate). This "entry cost" is rather bound to turn people away rather to draw them in. Other games "specializing" in Arab/Israeli conflict may be more attractive for new players interested in these. Thus I conclude that the Arab/Israeli module will first and foremost attract ASLers already involved into the game system.

For example, some hate Deluxe, but I love the smaller scale and focus on the tactics on that level. To each their own - expanding it beyond WWII is great in my book.

I acknowledge that, but ruleswise Deluxe ASL is 99.9% identical with standard ASL. In practice even simpler, because the available boards preclude some rules of being used in the first place and the smaller territory covered will, by tendency, lead to scenarios that are more simple.

I hope that, like Korea, once the core module was out scenario editors really started to run with it. I have not given my Korea games a run yet - but when I get to them, I have plenty of content to choose from - such as the recent AP that focused on the cavalry's experience in Korea.

A whole lot of seasoned ASL players have yet to give Korea a try. My assessment is, that Korea will remain a niche within ASL while ASL, due to its complexity will remain a niche among wargames. The same is true for DTO (desert) and some other rules sections.


Should thus MMP focus on the core time-frame of "1937-1945", which already provides vast opportunities? This question is not as easy as it first appears.

As aforementioned, I probably wouldn't have bought / wouldn't buy Spanish Civil War, Korea, Arab/Israeli modules if it weren't to keep my kit complete - at substantial cost. With playing time being limited, chances are that I will stick to the core time-frame and even won't venture in some areas of the rules on top of that. Better to reasonably understand what one is doing in an overseeable area that to dabble everywhere without really having a clue. Against this background, which I venture to propose that many share, the answer should be: Yes.

However, within the core time-frame, there is not much ground, which has not already been treaded. Needless to say, there are innumerable battles uncovered yet and countless opportunities for HASLs with CGs. But with regard to the "basic situations" from Infantry battles, combined arms actions, beach landings, river crossings, night, winter, urban combat, etc. we've been there, done that. There are by far more than 10.000 scenarios out there by MMP and countless quality TPPs. For quite a while, each year more quality stuff is published than anyone has the chance to play and keep up with. To present really "new" situations might require an expansion of the time frame. From this perspective, the answer might be: No.

So it is somewhat of a conundrum.

Yet, as a bottom-line, I tend to the POV to stick with the basic time-frame of 1937-1945.
There are still some aspects which have not been covered. One example that springs to mind and which is being worked on is Railroads. "Railroad-terrain" (Tunnels, bridges, stations & other installations either as overlays or new boards with respective rules), armored trains, engines, transport/unloading. Such stuff would open a new category for scenarios. This is the direction I would select for ASL.

von Marwitz

 

[laurent closier]

What is the scope of the module though? Only the War of Independence of 1948? Or moving further down the road into future conflicts? Centurians/Pattons vs T55/T62? Boy theres a thought for ASL!

Only the War of Independence of 1948.

 

[Mister T]

This would be getting way too close to current affairs and i certainly would not feel confortable playing that kind of stuff. Korea is different as it is a remote theater. Spanish civil war is before WW2 and therefore far away in time so it would be a coin toss (i think i played some Hazmo stuff related to that). A matter of personal taste i guess.

 

[Michael R]

I'm not sure I will enjoy this module because of its associated history. To me, the Arab-Israeli conflicts feel like religious wars. That turns me off somewhat.

I suppose one could argue the conflicts are two groups of people fighting over ownership of the same lands and leave religion out of it.

 

[SonsofUltramar]

At this point, I think that most of us have way more content than we are ever going to play. For example, to help me get back into ASL, I went and looked through all of my non-HASL scenarios for scenarios that you could play using Chapters A/B/C only - what I lovingly refer to as 'ETO infantry only' (technically with 5/8" guns, but you get the idea) as I feel like this is the easiest way to ease back into it.

I have 100 scenarios that fit that specification - and most of you likely have a lot more depending on how much stuff you have from the 80's and 90's and TPP.

So I think its nice to have something set scenarios apart - like the Ethiopia scenarios that were included with HL.

For sure that this topic (Arab-Israeli Wars) are very personal for some, and very political for others - I steer away from that, and just focus on understanding the conflict on the ground and how it has evolved post WWII.

 

[Steve H]

I'm not sure I will enjoy this module because of its associated history. To me, the Arab-Israeli conflicts feel like religious wars. That turns me off somewhat.

I suppose one could argue the conflicts are two groups of people fighting over ownership of the same lands and leave religion out of it.

I am guessing that is why they are choosing the title "Contested Lands" vice "Islam vs Judaism" I understand some peoples aversion to this module, both for political as well as "outside the scope of WWII ASL" reasons. Having spent more than 3 1/2 years on operations in this area (both on UN ops and US commanded training missions), I am very interested to see how they portray both the ground (the Golan is not WoA terrain!) and the protagonists. I have the CH modules, and one of the issues I have with them are the Israeli "super-squads", similiar to people's complaints about the Finns.