Clue to Current State of CMN and Release Date

dalem

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That's because they didn't have old junk. The Americans hadn't been fighting long enough to collect the junk that other nations had.

Good Hunting.

MR
Mmmm, I'd say it was more than that. The old stuff for the U.S. tended to get phased out or given to allies. Think of the M3 Medium tank, the M3A1 Scout Car, the various 75mm-armed HTs for TD and support duties, the M3A1 37mm ATG, the M3 Stuarts. Geez that's a lot of M3s, ain't it? You wouldn't find many of these beasties soldiering on in a U.S. division in 1944 or 1945 because they were all replaced, but you could find them with the Free Friench, the Poles, or the Brits. Or in the Pacific for some of them because they were still useful against the technically-challenged Japanese.

-dale
 

Geordie

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That's because they didn't have old junk. The Americans hadn't been fighting long enough to collect the junk that other nations had.

Good Hunting.

MR
Well technically, according to some, and when compared to German top quality AFVs, the Allies did bring old junk. Not many Brit tankers will say even their Fireflies could match a Panther or Tiger....
 

Michael Dorosh

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Mmmm, I'd say it was more than that. The old stuff for the U.S. tended to get phased out or given to allies. Think of the M3 Medium tank, the M3A1 Scout Car, the various 75mm-armed HTs for TD and support duties, the M3A1 37mm ATG, the M3 Stuarts. Geez that's a lot of M3s, ain't it? You wouldn't find many of these beasties soldiering on in a U.S. division in 1944 or 1945 because they were all replaced, but you could find them with the Free Friench, the Poles, or the Brits. Or in the Pacific for some of them because they were still useful against the technically-challenged Japanese.

-dale
Ever see an Airacobra in Russian markings? Wasn't pretty.

Those M3 Lees and Grants in Russian markings too. Red Army used 'em just the same because they needed them. Of course, the Russians had a lot of "junk" in their own inventories - T70s and light tanks that weren't a match for even the PIII.

The M3 Stuart was replaced twice - by the M5 Stuart and again by the M24 Chaffee - but M3s continued in service to the end of the war, simply because there were so many of them made. M5 was supposed to be replaced by the Chaffee also, but there was just not enough time to do it.

If time and expense had not been factors, you can guarantee that U.S. armored units would have rolled into Germany with the M26 Pershing as the mainstay, with M24 Chaffees as their light tank. The M4 medium and M3/M5 lights would very much have been considered "junk".
 

Patrocles

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In Normandy the Germans used any tank whatsoever. 21st Panzer even made their own semi-StuGs with some random French Chassis and a Pak40 or something.

The Allies did indeed not bring old junk.
interesting. what kind of numbers did the germans produce/convert? I would guess they would be one-offs or single digits?

I would hope that these "rebuilt" tanks are included in the game even if they were one-offs or vary rare in order to create normandy scenarios.
 

Michael Dorosh

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interesting. what kind of numbers did the germans produce/convert? I would guess they would be one-offs or single digits?

I would hope that these "rebuilt" tanks are included in the game even if they were one-offs or vary rare in order to create normandy scenarios.
Zetterling has some info on these - if no one responds by tonight I can provide some data - I'm just on my way to work. I recently did a bit of research on these vehicles for some writing I'm doing. I think there is some info on them online though.
 

Redwolf

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interesting. what kind of numbers did the germans produce/convert? I would guess they would be one-offs or single digits?

I would hope that these "rebuilt" tanks are included in the game even if they were one-offs or vary rare in order to create normandy scenarios.
The authority on this is Von Luck's "Panzah Leadah". (ghetto SP guns and speech should get along)
 

Michael Dorosh

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Ok, Zetterling does mention the French SPs of PD 21 but does not go into detail. I know I have seen an extensive discussion of these in my research, but I'm struggling to remember where. It may have been in the Canadian official history now that I think of it, but I won't have time to check tonight. FWIW, Zetterling lists Assault Gun Battalion 200 as having four companies of Hotchkiss vehicles, each with 4 7.5cm PaK guns and 6 10.5cm guns each.

I read somewhere that they had a local workshop producing these, but until I find my research notes, I can't verify any of this.

View attachment 29522
 
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Mad Russian

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Mmmm, I'd say it was more than that. The old stuff for the U.S. tended to get phased out or given to allies. Think of the M3 Medium tank, the M3A1 Scout Car, the various 75mm-armed HTs for TD and support duties, the M3A1 37mm ATG, the M3 Stuarts. Geez that's a lot of M3s, ain't it? You wouldn't find many of these beasties soldiering on in a U.S. division in 1944 or 1945 because they were all replaced, but you could find them with the Free Friench, the Poles, or the Brits. Or in the Pacific for some of them because they were still useful against the technically-challenged Japanese.

-dale
The M3 Grant/Lee's were turned into M7 Priests.....lots of them.

You forget to mention the M4. The M3 HT's were all used/upgraded to the M5. The M3 Stuart was simply upgraded to the M5. The 37mm ATG was thrown away to the Marines. The French/British/Soviets all used front line M4's not hand me down stuff. The American Allies all got front line equipment at the time it was given. When the Soviets/British got M3's the US was using them too. When the US upgraded to the M4 the Soviets/ British and French all got them too.

The TD HT's were simply phased out. There weren't that many of them to begin with.

A good example are the US TD"s. The M-10, M-18 and M-36 all served together for a good part of the war.


Good Hunting.

MR
 
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Michael Dorosh

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The M3 Grant/Lee's were turned into M7 Priests.....lots of them.
This isn't accurate. The M3 chassis was used to produce the T32, which was a prototype vehicle. That prototype became the M7 Priest, which was a purpose built vehicle.

They didn't "convert" existing Lees and Grants into SPs, they built them on assembly lines from scratch.
 

dalem

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The M3 Grant/Lee's were turned into M7 Priests.....lots of them.
Actually I think most or all of the M7s were new production, not conversions of extant platforms. The old Grants & Lees, Brit and U.S., went to training units (and maybe some to the Yugoslavs via the Brits?)

You forget to mention the M4. The M3 HT's were all used/upgraded to the M5. The M3 Stuart was simply upgraded to the M5. The 37mm ATG was thrown away to the Marines. The French/British/Soviets all used front line M4's not hand me down stuff. The American Allies all got front line equipment at the time it was given. When the Soviets/British got M3's the US was using them too. When the US upgraded to the M4 the Soviets/ British and French all got them too.

The TD HT's were simply phased out. There weren't that many of them to begin with.
I never mentioned the M4 because it was never replaced. The SPA and TD HTs were indeed expedients and were phased out, but they did exist and were used. The M5 version of the HT was just an International Harvester version produced to supplement normal production. The upgrade kits were the A1 kits (M3A1, M5A1) - the pulpit mounts for the M2 HMG. The M3 in its APC role was also never replaced. The M3 Stuarts and the M5 Stuarts were very separate, very distinct vehicles. As you say, the 37mm stayed in service with the Marines but was phased out of the Army.

A good example are the US TD"s. The M-10, M-18 and M-36 all served together for a good part of the war.

Good Hunting.

MR
A good example of...? I think the fact that there's a list of U.S. kit that was used, then discarded or given away, at least partially invalidates your point that the U.S. hadn;t fought long enough to collect junk.

Another facet of that question is U.S. production methods. We didn't produce 4 brands of medium tanks, a gajillion light tanks, several heavies, and a bewildering array of SPGs - we stuck with one or two models of each and ran up the production lines. As has been pointed out by a million other people, this was occasionally to our detriment because the need to keep production at full steam meant we were less willing to consider or adopt needed imrovements in tank/TD design (for instance). We had a crappy jungle boot for a while too, if I remember my reading correctly.

My favorite never-produced conversion is the M36 turret on a M18 chassis. War ended before it was final-proofed, but that would have been a real corker.

-dale
 

Michael Dorosh

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Actually I think most or all of the M7s were new production, not conversions of extant platforms.
You are so right, my main man. ;)

I don't know if this counts as "irony" or not, but the M7 Priests may count as someone else's "junk" in that they were issued to assault divisions of the Commonwealth for Normandy, and then withdrawn in favour of towed 25-pounders at the end of July - at which time they were supposed to be returned to the Americans. The Canadians wheeled and dealed and instead took theirs and cut them up for conversion to Kangaroo APCs for Operation TOTALIZE. The newly formed APC squadron (later expanded to a full regiment) eventually had the Priest Kangaroos replaced with Ram Kangaroos.

View attachment 29528
 

thewood

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Chamberlain has a section on foreign tank chasis converted to SPG in German service. Its a who's who of captured tanks. I know there were a couple hundred mounting 75mm, 105mm, and 150mm. At leat one, the French Schlepper, had over 100 conversions. The rest ranged from 5 serving to 20 serving. There is also mention of i field expedients of just throwing a Pak on a truck or halftrack, but little in the way of service numbers.

I also think I have an old Squadron/Signal around with some info on them. I'll try to look them up tonight.
 

Michael Dorosh

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View attachment 29529

Further to dalem's reply about the M3 medium - in the background you can see where some of them ended up - in the Red Army. Their nickname was "grave for seven brothers" IIRC. The Germans took several photos of knocked out Lee tanks on the Eastern Front that have been famously reproduced in many books. About 1300 were sent there.

View attachment 29530
 

NUTTERNAME

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Michael Dorosh

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Also, did Lee tanks ever go to the Soviets or were both Grants and Lees sent. Most pictures show Grants.
The Soviets didn't receive a single Grant (as the British and U.S. referred to those types - i.e. that turret lacking the commander's cupola and having the relocated radio apparatus). It appears you're not familiar with the difference between the two types.

For some reason, however, despite the fact that they received M3A3 and M3A5 Lees, the Soviets themselves referred to them as "Grants".
 

[hirr]Leto

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It appears you're not familiar with the difference between the two types.
Jeez, Mike. Dontcha think this comment would have been better left out?

: )

Why don't you call me dumb a few times to get it our of your system??? I know I am dumb, and am feeling especially dumb today after 10 hours of intense mental work (I am a worker in a factory that has the job of reviewing old clips of Three's Company for snippets of philosophical significance).

Anyways: is is a coffin for six brothers or seven brothers? And are these seven (six) brothers marries to seven (six) sisters? And do they swing, and is there video of it?

Last of all, you've forgotten to include that the M3A3 variants sent to the Russians were actually first deployed to North Afrika, where they were outfitted with Moroccan Spicy lube... making the six (or seven) brothers much more brotherly, and thus sitting ducks for the Germans who could just drive up and pop them in their spicy lube frenzy.

Some historian you are.

Cheers!

Leto
 

NUTTERNAME

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The Soviets didn't receive a single Grant (as the British and U.S. referred to those types - i.e. that turret lacking the commander's cupola and having the relocated radio apparatus). It appears you're not familiar with the difference between the two types.

For some reason, however, despite the fact that they received M3A3 and M3A5 Lees, the Soviets themselves referred to them as "Grants".
I just wanted to prove that dorosh can't be trusted. He said that he would block my posts. He knows he needs to read them.
 

[hirr]Leto

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I just wanted to prove that dorosh can't be trusted. He said that he would block my posts. He knows he needs to read them.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but isn't that called trolling? A definate no no on this board? Hmmmmm?

Cheers!

Leto
 
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