Clue to Current State of CMN and Release Date

Michael Dorosh

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I'm not exactly blown away by how the town looks. Still nothing but rigid straight lines and it's all way too crisp and clean. No sign of anything aged or dirtied up.

Maybe those aren't the final textures yet as CMSF looked better to me in this regard.
I was equally unimpressed by the human figures and uniforms. They weren't as bad as the depressing guys in G.I. Combat, if anyone bought that one, but they seem...Uncanny Valley just comes to mind. Then again, I'm not seeing them in motion, which may help - but my big issue with CM:SF was that the guys all looked like they were running under water. When those blocky-looking guys in CM:BO ran around, it seemed natural even when they were in slow motion, because they looked so not human, you didn't expect anything else. You knew they were just sprites. Now, we're getting so close, but not quite there, to having real human representation, that you expect better animations and the result just looks creepy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

The theory holds that when robots and other facsimiles of humans look and act almost like actual humans, it causes a response of revulsion among human observers.
By the way, Steve edited his other post and put this up, don't know if anyone noticed:



Just a mockup, not actual in-game graphics, but illustrates how the purchases work.
 

Sgt_Kelly

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I don't know, I think they can stand to be compared with figures in other games. I doubt the animation will increase your appreciation. At least Moon didn't take the screenshots or the guy with the binoculars would have been looking straight at a brick wall :p.
Steve explained that they took pains to insert some variety to combat the 'cloned soldier' effect, e.g. in the stuff soldiers have on their back etc. So, props for trying. In time this can be enhanced, perhaps. Bare helmets, helmets with netting, helmets with netting and twigs and leaves, that kind of thing.
One thing I have a pet hate about is that they can never get the hand that holds the barrel right in any game. The rifle always rests to 'deep' in the hand, with the fingers extending way too far past the barrel.

Yeah, I don't know why he's suddenly so obsessed with the notion that we absolutely have to get his box deal. I was perfectly fine with selecting my type of PzIV from a list of every possible type of tank.
 

thewood

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I look at that selection screen and still feel like they are overcomplicating the whole thing. I agree about saying, what was wrong with just picking each unit in your force. Why this forced historical TOE obsession. This is what srewed up QBs in CMSF.

btw, a great analogy from a friend of mine who never bought CMSF, but played mine a bit:

The CM franchise has become like the Ford Thuderbird. When it first came out, people raved about it and it sold great. But in the 70's someone at Ford decided to change th TB so that it would appeal to a newer, broader audience. If anyone remembers what a monstrosity the TB ended up being through the 70's and 80's, you know what I am talking about. Place an early 60's TB and a late 80's TB and you can't beleieve they are called the same name. One is a sleek sports coupe and the other is a huge gas-guzzling 4000 lb monster. But Ford kept trying to play up the TB's heritage to market it. Well guess what? TB fans didn't buy it and Ford had to discount the heck out of it to sell it. Ford killed the TB in 90's and then semi-successfully brought it back a few years ago. And guess which version the new TB tried to emulate? Not the gas-guzzler. I agree the CM is heading down that same path.

If CMSF had been called just Shock Force, I would have treated it the same I way treat ToW; interesting play while I wait for the new CM. But for all Steve's and the beta brigade's protesting, calling it CM immediately set expectations. CM is a franchise, not a standalone game. Features are expected to, at a minimum, carry over from game to game. Not realizing that puts a nice solid exclamation point on BFC's lack of market intelligence.
 

Michael Dorosh

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I don't know, I think they can stand to be compared with figures in other games. I doubt the animation will increase your appreciation. At least Moon didn't take the screenshots or the guy with the binoculars would have been looking straight at a brick wall :p.
That was delicious. :yummy:
Steve explained that they took pains to insert some variety to combat the 'cloned soldier' effect, e.g. in the stuff soldiers have on their back etc. So, props for trying. In time this can be enhanced, perhaps. Bare helmets, helmets with netting, helmets with netting and twigs and leaves, that kind of thing.
One thing I have a pet hate about is that they can never get the hand that holds the barrel right in any game. The rifle always rests to 'deep' in the hand, with the fingers extending way too far past the barrel.
I don't know if the increased variety makes them creepier or not. I think it actually increases the creepiness factor because you are still getting closer to reality, hence deeper into the valley. But, I wouldn't suggest they go the other way. I play at high camera elevation anyway.

The MG animations still seem screwed up to me and are a pet peeve as much as your rifle ones.

Yeah, I don't know why he's suddenly so obsessed with the notion that we absolutely have to get his box deal. I was perfectly fine with selecting my type of PzIV from a list of every possible type of tank.
I preferred the massive list. Less clicking, and you could see at a glance everything that was available. Unless they put all this info into the manual, it's nice to have in the selection screens, especially for newbies who don't have every German tank type memorized. I suppose there is always the possibility they will sell another "gamer's guide" and make you pay for the info that way, too.
 

dalem

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I preferred the massive list. Less clicking, and you could see at a glance everything that was available. Unless they put all this info into the manual, it's nice to have in the selection screens, especially for newbies who don't have every German tank type memorized. I suppose there is always the possibility they will sell another "gamer's guide" and make you pay for the info that way, too.
I think that groups and subgroups work well for those kind of picks. More manageable than on giant list. For me.

-dale
 

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I think you are forgetting how limited in time & scope the game is going to represent for the number of units on a list.
It's along the lines of BFC saying: "if it wasn't there (NW France...) between these "dates" then it's not going to be on the list period." Doesn't matter if "that" unit was operating in Italy, Russia or sitting waiting in England, if it wasn't used in "Normandy" it won't be on the list - anywhere.

So I doubt if there will be a Master-list of all units that were operational before or during the time period of the game included so a designer could select them. (Or will there be Elvis?) :)


One thing that bugs me is that Steve now seems to think that no one should ever just want to put together a QB of say 5 King Tigers vs. 20 Shermans just for FUN because that would be "Cherry-picking" and not historical.
I used to play my against my younger son's in CMBB just grabbing a bunch of tanks (lopsided or not) and blasting away at each other in a town or tree setting- it was FUN and we were playing Steve's game called CMBB... I don't see anything wrong with being able to pick any unit(s) you want from any date and having a good time, historical or not. This is a GAME right?
 
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Mad Russian

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The one thing that CM1 had going for it was the variety of options available for play. If you wanted a QB in any form, you could get it, if you wanted premade scenarios they were out there by the dozens. So far no other game I've seen comes close to matching that. Certainly not CM2.

But, as Geordie has pointed out on a few occasions, I'm a hard sell when it comes to CM2 and I more than likely won't buy it unless it proves itself far and wide. At this point I'm not even close to buying a version of it.

Good Hunting.

MR
 

[hirr]Leto

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Nope. Light ballistics simulator filtered through Steve's version of "history" and nothing else allowed. Enjoy it.

-dale
You forgot to add "or be damned to the seventh level of hell if you don't".
 

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I think you are forgetting how limited in time & scope the game is going to represent for the number of units on a list.
It's along the lines of BFC saying: "if it wasn't there (NW France...) between these "dates" then it's not going to be on the list period." Doesn't matter if "that" unit was operating in Italy, Russia or sitting waiting in England, if it wasn't used in "Normandy" it won't be on the list - anywhere.

So I doubt if there will be a Master-list of all units that were operational before or during the time period of the game included so a designer could select them. (Or will there be Elvis?) :)


One thing that bugs me is that Steve now seems to think that no one should ever just want to put together a QB of say 5 King Tigers vs. 20 Shermans just for FUN because that would be "Cherry-picking" and not historical.
I used to play my against my younger son's in CMBB just grabbing a bunch of tanks (lopsided or not) and blasting away at each other in a town or tree setting- it was FUN and we were playing Steve's game called CMBB... I don't see anything wrong with being able to pick any unit(s) you want from any date and having a good time, historical or not. This is a GAME right?
Correct. There will be no master list of all units available everywhere in the Normandy release. It will be focused on units that were in that area at that time. Units that may have been in that area but were extremely rare you should not expect to see either (notice how that is different than "absolutely will not see).

I agree with you about cherry picking and have done it as well.
 

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One thing that bugs me is that Steve now seems to think that no one should ever just want to put together a QB of say 5 King Tigers vs. 20 Shermans just for FUN because that would be "Cherry-picking" and not historical.
I used to play my against my younger son's in CMBB just grabbing a bunch of tanks (lopsided or not) and blasting away at each other in a town or tree setting- it was FUN and we were playing Steve's game called CMBB... I don't see anything wrong with being able to pick any unit(s) you want from any date and having a good time, historical or not. This is a GAME right?
And he might disable it in the editor, too, or at least make extremely difficult.
 

dalem

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And he might disable it in the editor, too, or at least make extremely difficult.
If you can't do it in the editor either that removes the annoyance of his players actually testing game outcomes, doesn't it? No more "I set up 100 ammoless King Tigers in Rough to eliminate movement and fired 50 shots from 50 Bazooka teams at 100 yards and got X turret hits, Y hull hits, and Z track hits, and x, y, and z kills, respectively - what's up with that?" That would smell a bit.

-dale
 

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And he might disable it in the editor, too, or at least make extremely difficult.
What's the point of putting in an editor if the designer can't edit the game to suit his design ideas?

If I want to design an all "swamp" scenario with PzII's vs. an all mortar UK teams I should be able to. Players can read the scenario description and play it or not. The game company should not handicap designers in the editor: if they want to be that much in control they should just leave out the editor.


Question- didn't most out dated or under equiped AFV's from all sides usually get moved off the front lines to back areas for security etc? If so what if I wanted to make a Airborne assualt/special ops type scenario (which I have made) against one of those way to the back locations. Wouldn't there be "old" and outdated AFV's sitting back there? In CMBB I could toss in '41 armor vs '45 infantry units, but by the sounds of it that would be impossibile to do in CM:N or any followup game.
 

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If you can't do it in the editor either that removes the annoyance of his players actually testing game outcomes, doesn't it? No more "I set up 100 ammoless King Tigers in Rough to eliminate movement and fired 50 shots from 50 Bazooka teams at 100 yards and got X turret hits, Y hull hits, and Z track hits, and x, y, and z kills, respectively - what's up with that?" .-dale
If thats the case then Poor Old Spike won't have anything to do if he buys CM:N....
 

dalem

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In CMBB I could toss in '41 armor vs '45 infantry units, but by the sounds of it that would be impossibile to do in CM:N or any followup game.
Well, Steve's sworn a Mighty Oath against Theater in a Box, so I would say that 41 vs 45 would be impossible unless Steve read in a book somewhere that a 41kampfwagen was in the same campaign location as the 45kampfwagens. Maybe not even then. Then again, if it's selling they could add in oddball units with followup modules. Then again, he's sworn Mighty Oaths before.

Frankly I think you're thinking way too far ahead. First it has to be finished, then released. Then it has to not suck.

-dale
 

Michael Dorosh

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Question- didn't most out dated or under equiped AFV's from all sides usually get moved off the front lines to back areas for security etc? If so what if I wanted to make a Airborne assualt/special ops type scenario (which I have made) against one of those way to the back locations. Wouldn't there be "old" and outdated AFV's sitting back there? In CMBB I could toss in '41 armor vs '45 infantry units, but by the sounds of it that would be impossibile to do in CM:N or any followup game.
"Homemade" campaigns would be difficult too - think Onion Wars type stuff - where tank types improve over a timeline, but not a historical one, so that matchups out of sync with the "real" timeline might occur. For example if your "Green" team doesn't invest in research and never develops a King Tiger, and ends up doing battle with Pz Is and IIs vs the "Orange" team's JsIIs, who have invested heavily in tech.
 

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In Normandy the Germans used any tank whatsoever. 21st Panzer even made their own semi-StuGs with some random French Chassis and a Pak40 or something.

The Allies did indeed not bring old junk.
 

Mad Russian

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In Normandy the Germans used any tank whatsoever. 21st Panzer even made their own semi-StuGs with some random French Chassis and a Pak40 or something.

The Allies did indeed not bring old junk.

That's because they didn't have old junk. The Americans hadn't been fighting long enough to collect the junk that other nations had.

Good Hunting.

MR
 
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