Clue to Current State of CMN and Release Date

[Redwolf]

Did the Western Allies even have troops to man, maintain and transport the additional tanks and the required logistics? The Brits certainly did not.

 

[NUTTERNAME]

The United States, who could have had the 1942-1943 manpower, was involved in a two front war. But, they had decided with the Allies that Germany needed to be dealt with first. So my feeling, much like Stalin's, was why not get into Europe as soon as possible? Italy was the wrong spot. The terrain and overall threat to Germany was not substantial. It was just attrition.

If the Allies could have pushed into the southern France area ("free zone") at the same time that Germany was being pressurized during the 1943 battles (Not just Kursk but the Soviet onslaught all through the rest of that year), Germany would have been pressurized before the real deployment of numbers of Panthers and Tigers and other armor in the West.

I would like to see the German OOB in Southern France during the July-December 1943 time frame.

 

[Redwolf]

The United States, who could have had the 1942-1943 manpower, was involved in a two front war. But, they had decided with the Allies that Germany needed to be dealt with first. So my feeling, much like Stalin's, was why not get into Europe as soon as possible? Italy was the wrong spot. The terrain and overall threat to Germany was not substantial. It was just attrition.

If the Allies could have pushed into the southern France area ("free zone") at the same time that Germany was being pressurized during the 1943 battles (Not just Kursk but the Soviet onslaught all through the rest of that year), Germany would have been pressurized before the real deployment of numbers of Panthers and Tigers and other armor in the West.

I would like to see the German OOB in Southern France during the July-December 1943 time frame.

There was no way for the Western Alloes to know that the Soviets would have a successful second half of 1943. Up to that point the Germans have been running circles around them every summer.

There is even less a way to know that so far in advance that you can plan an invasion of France. At the time where this would have to be decided the Western Allies were hard-pressed to even get single convoys to Malta. How do you assume you can get on a southern French beach?

 

[NUTTERNAME]

I don't quite follow your logic. the Allies DID invade Sicily/Italy during the the 1943 timeframe. In fact, the US DID want a attack on France. The British/Allies wanted to hop around the Med.

 

[Rule_303]

Redwolf is right, dude. Just take a look at a map. Sicily is, what? 100 nautical miles from the ports of Tunis and Tripoli, with nothing more dangerous sitting astride the sailing route than the artillery base on Pantelleria which was pulverized with airpower.

In contrast, to get up to the Anvil-Dragoon beaches you've got to stage and sail your invasion armada from Gibraltar or Oran up along the coast of fascist Spain into the Gulf of Lyon, past Corsica and Sardinia (or else take them first). For either operation, in addition to U-boats, E-boats, the Luftwaffe and minefields, you've got the Italian navy at Leghorn (which was still fairly formidable and German-allied). Unlike Sicily, you're punching into a pretty deep hole. With a 1943 army, air and naval forces, not a 1944 one.

And assuming you can somehow put Patton ashore with 3 divisions and some fuel, what then? German sappers render Toulon, Marseille and the other ports useless just as they did the Channel Ports later on. And the Rhone estuary isn't great tank country; I suspect it can be flooded. And after that, you're fighting up the Rhone Valley between the Alps and the Garrone.

The only reason Anvil-Dragoon was a relative cakewalk in August '44 was because (a) the Allies were already tearing through northern France (b) half of Italy, Sardinia and Corsica were in Allied hands and the Gulf of Lyon was an Allied lake (c) the German 19th Army had no desire to stand its ground, be cut off from Germany and butchered by Allied firepower, plus take-no-prisoners Maquisards. There's a Bill Mauldin cartoon showing terrified Germans running in unarmed and frantically hugging Willie 'n Joe, which gives you the general idea of the situation. What a difference a year makes.

And an Allied invasion in northern Europe of anywhere other than maybe Norway (and what exactly does that do for you strategically other than cut off some iron and nickel ore?) in 1943 would just have been Dieppe writ larger. The U-boat forces hadn't been destroyed yet.

On the other hand, I agree with you that the Italian campaign was pointless. Grab Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica and wait until Overlord. Pass on the "boot". But that's 20/20 hindsight of course.

 

[Redwolf]

I don't quite follow your logic. the Allies DID invade Sicily/Italy during the the 1943 timeframe. In fact, the US DID want a attack on France. The British/Allies wanted to hop around the Med.

Italy, Sicily in particular, are not France. Alps and the length of Italy make a difference WRT reinforcements from Germany.

Quote on that claim the U.S. wanted to invade France in 1943?

 

[NUTTERNAME]

(From Axis History Forum.....post in progress)
Divisions June 1943
SS PzGD
2 West Front (France/Belgium)
5 East Front

SS Geb, Kav and GD
1 West Front (France)
1 Finland
1 Balkans
1 East Front

Panzer/Panzergrenadier (Sizilian and HG)
8 West Front (1 Denmark, 3 Italy, 4 Belgium/France)
1 Norway
1 Balkans
16 East Front

Infantry
31 West (2 Denmark, 4 Holland, 25 Belgium/France incl. 2 mot)
2 Balkans
1 Crete
2 Germany
1 Poland
3 Finland
12 Norway
133 East Front (incl. 7 mot)

Reserve-Infantry
10 West (France and Belgium)
1 Balkans
2 Poland
4 East Front

Gebirgsjaeger
1 Balkans
3 Finland
3 East Front

Jaeger
1 Greece
4 Balkans
5 East Front

Luftwaffe-Fallschirm
1 West Front (Italy)
2 West Front (France)

Luftwaffe-Feld
5 West Front (1 Holland, 1 Denmark, 3 France)
1 Greece
1 Norway
12 East Front

Total
60 West Front (incl. 10 Pz/PzGD/SS PzGD and 2 Mot ID)
179 East Front (incl. 21 Pz/SS PzGD and 7 Mot ID)
7 Finland
10 Balkans (incl. 1 Pz)
14 Norway (incl. 1 Pz)
2 Crete/Greece
2 Germany
1 Poland
275 Total (incl. 33 Pz/SS PzGD and 9 Mot ID)

Divisions June 1944
SS Pz/PzGD
5 West Front (1 Italy, 4 Belgium/France)
2 Balkans
5 East Front

SS Geb, Kav and GD
1 Hungary
6 Balkans
1 Finland
4 East Front

Panzer
11 West Front (1 Holland, 2 Denmark, 2 Italy, 6 Belgium/France)
1 Germany
14 East Front

Panzergrenadier
4 West Front (Italy)
6 East Front

Infantry
48 West Front (1 Denmark, 4 Holland, 12 Italy, 31 Belgium/France)
6 Balkans
1 Crete
2 Germany
3 Finland
11 Norway
99 East Front

Reserve-Infantry
9 West (2 Denmark, 7 Belgium/France)
2 Poland

Gebirgsjaeger
2 West Front (Italy)
1 Balkans
3 Finland
2 East Front

Jaeger
2 West Front (Italy)
3 Balkans
7 East Front (inc. 1 Skijaeger)

Luftwaffe-Fallschirm
5 West Front (2 Italy, 3 France)
1 Germany

Luftwaffe-Feld
5 West Front (1 Holland, 2 Italy, 2 France)
1 Balkans
1 Norway
5 East Front

Kossack
1 Balkans

Total
91 West Front (incl. 20 Pz/PzGD/SS Pz/PzGD)
142 East Front (incl. 25 Pz/PzGDSS Pz/PzGD)
7 Finland
20 Balkans (incl. 2 SS PzGD)
12 Norway (incl. 1 Pz)
1 Crete/Greece
4 Germany (incl. 1 Pz)
1 Hungary
2 Poland
280 Total (incl. 49 Pz/PzGD/SS Pz/PzGD)RichTO90
Member


Posts: 1973
Joined: 22 Dec 2003, 19:03
Location: Newport News, VA, USA

 

[McIvan]

interesting. what kind of numbers did the germans produce/convert? I would guess they would be one-offs or single digits?

I would hope that these "rebuilt" tanks are included in the game even if they were one-offs or vary rare in order to create normandy scenarios.

I don't have numbers, but there were all sorts of fascinating custom builds by 21 Panzer...from SPGs on french chassis to little french UAC tankettes to the same tankettes with six rocket launchers bolted to the sides to old Renualt and H39 and Char 1bis tanks to various Jpz hybrids. The indication is we won't see them, but they would be fun to play in a Hungarian or Romanian sort-a-fing way.

 

[NUTTERNAME]

According to PanzertruppenII, the Germans had 827 panzers 'in the west' Dec 31 1943. 208 of them were PanzerIII with short and long 50mm and 75 short, PanzerIV and StuG short. So one quarter are really obsolete as far as facing off on a sherman heavy force backed by M10.

 

[Rule_303]

So what? German divisions, particularly FJ but even panzer divisions, can be moved around quickly by rail, and were. The Germans were able to flood Italy with combat troops on short notice at the time of the surrender, and again after Anzio. Even the massive air interdiction that accompanied Overlord didn't stop the Germans from getting a dozen heavy divisions across France and into Normandy over the next month.

The Germans could rail a corps, including new generation PDs, from Germany into Southern France within a week, and probably the Italian Alpini division too. And even sooner, fly down a veteran bomber Geschwader of JU-88s to hammer the vulnerable cargo ships and LSTs trying to feed Patton across the beaches while he struggles to prise Germans out of the ruined ports, a la Saint Lo. In contrast, where's the Allied air cover flying in from? Algiers? This gets ugly.

 

[dalem]

Quote on that claim the U.S. wanted to invade France in 1943?

Perret's "There's a War to be Won" has numerous references to the U.S. staff planners' push to get into France as early as 1942 (!). The Brits wisely (in this case) clucked and shook their Senior Partner rattles at them and pointed them at North Africa instead. My copy is on loan so I can't look up an exact quote for you.

-dale

 

[thewood]

I thought it was pretty common knowledge that Marshall wanted to invade France in 42 but was talked out of it by the Brits. I think they did an end run to Roosevelt.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I thought it was pretty common knowledge that Marshall wanted to invade France in 42 but was talked out of it by the Brits. I think they did an end run to Roosevelt.

Any of the books on Dieppe talk about the United States' insane plans to invade the continent and why they were doomed to fail. Some of the more amusing ones were a plan to attack Paris, large scale plans to land a dozen divisions in France, hang around a few months and then leave, etc.

Biggest reason they couldn't land in France in 1942 - lack of landing craft. They had to delay Normandy until June 1944 for that very reason for pity's sake.

 

[Geordie]

Its interesting to re-visit old posts sometimes when discussing release dates etc. Below is Steves response to a few posters at BFC from this time last year regarding the release dates of their products. Im not really interested in the statement that CMN would be out before Xmas last year but the rest of the post gives an insight into some of the perceived delays.

What I find really interesting is that here we are 1 year later the game hasnt moved forward one bit, despite what Steve said in the post. You can just add 1 year to all of the posters comments and Steves relpies could be the very same but one year on!

Anyone for 'definitely out in 2010'? If anything, the state of CM-2 has gotten decidely worse. I think a new game every 3 years and a module a year is getting to be optimistic.............>>>>>>> All Bold is mine>>>>>


Scipio,

I remember how Steve praised the advantages of the new CMx2 modular system with a release circle of 2-4 modules and one main title per year, IIRC. CMSF is out now for nearly 2 years and the only released main title + a single module in the CMx2 line.

Correct, except we're at 1.5 years... not "almost 2". As others have stated this is for two reasons:

1. We had to do a lot more work on the basic game engine before moving forward. That delayed things about a year.

2. Marines took longer than expected because it was our first Module ever.

3. British is taking longer than expected because it's our fist mostly outsourced Module ever.

4. It always takes us longer to do anything than we think it does. In that sense, we're as bad as about 98% of all software developers out there

Indeed I would be more than surprised if we see more than one main title each second or third year, plus one module per year.

Definitely not going to happen. The primary delays experienced since CM:SF's launch were one time problems. They're behind us now.

There seem to be fundamental problems that we neither know nor understand, but we suffer from them anyway...

If by "suffering" you mean us taking the time to get things done right, correct. If by "suffering" you mean that our development schedule is somehow adding pain to your life, well... can't be helped! It's not our fault that nobody else is making games to keep you happily occupied in the meantime.

As for "fundamental problems"... other than the ones mentioned above, I can only think of one. And that's the internal way TO&E is handled. It is the basis for the entire game and until it is nearly perfect we can't get much work done on the Module itself (besides artwork, usually). There's nothing wrong with the end product, it's just that the little delays here and there as it is whipped into shape add up. We've recently re-evaluated how we get TO&E into the game and we're streamlining the code and the tools to create the TO&E in the format which the code needs. Too late to shave time off of the British Module, but it will radically reduce certain time delays for NATO and WW2.

Slaphappy,

The supposedly truncated timeline for release of new products related to CMx2 has not seen fruition.
To you it hasn't, but to us it has. We're doing so many things concurrently that you haven't seen yet which, under CMx1 code, wouldn't have even been started. Plus, we're only at the very beginning of the CMx2/Module development. The delays so far are not going to be repeated.

Also, 2010 is not a release timeframe for CM: Normandy. And before you wisearses say 2011

, I'll say it is definitely going to happen in 2009. Probably a few months later than we wanted, but then again everything is always later than we want. But that's normal since we're a software developer after all.

sfhand,

I see no need to rehash the release condition of the game, BF has done their part to make that okay, but referring to "free patches" seems a bit hyperbolic to me.

So, it is absolutely true that CM:SF 1.01 (which is what we shipped) needed quite a few significant patches to get it into a state that it should have been at earlier. But we went way beyond that. We always do, which is why we're always late on every product we've ever made and will ever likely make. Good reason to be late on a project IMHO!

Steve

 

[thewood]

I have always said that BFC's original reason for rebuilding the CM engine was flawed from the beginning. That original reason was to allow more rapid and frequent launches. I think my calculation guesstimate, based on similar sales of CMBO/CMBB/CMAK CMSF/Marines/Brits alludes to that model not holding much water. In almost three years, CM2 has one $50 release, and two $30 releases. In that same time period, CM1 had CMBO and CMBB out, with CMAK right around the corner. That is three $50 releases.

 

[vulture]

I have always said that BFC's original reason for rebuilding the CM engine was flawed from the beginning. That original reason was to allow more rapid and frequent launches. I think my calculation guesstimate, based on similar sales of CMBO/CMBB/CMAK CMSF/Marines/Brits alludes to that model not holding much water. In almost three years, CM2 has one $50 release, and two $30 releases. In that same time period, CM1 had CMBO and CMBB out, with CMAK right around the corner. That is three $50 releases.

No, it's two $50 releases: CMBO and CMBB. When we get to 4 years after CMSF comes out you can make it three. If by that time (mid 2011) there still isn't another CMx2 release you'll have a point (Leaving aside the whole "what else could they actually have done with the CMx1 engine to get another bunch of releases out of it" question). If on the other hand CM:N actually has appeared by then, they'll have a greater total $value of releases (which isn't a great metric, but seems to be the one you've gone for).

 

[NUTTERNAME]

1943 would have been feasible for the France invasion. I don't think anyone disagrees that 1942 would have been anything but a disaster.


I see the following as the German OOB for Southern France:
Army Felber in southern France July 1943
(Reserve: Panzer Grenadiers Division Feldherrnhalle in preparation)
LXXXIII Corps 326 Fortress Division
388 Fortress Division
356 Fortress Division
715 Infantry Division

I would certainly like to see the disposition of all troops across France at this time. Note that 'In Preparation' means the unit is being rebuilt or formed up. So Panzer Grenadiers Division Feldherrnhalle would be in state of 'not ready for battle in the east'. It eventually went there and was destroyed during Bagration (I believe).

But the percieved lack of landing craft is not a reality as an attack into Southern France would not be as large as the D-Day landings. I am also not convinced as far as the truth in the USA policy of dealing with 'Germany first' and 'Japan second'. Its my understanding that LC were split up about equaal between these theaters.

If a US Corp could break into Southern France sometime in 1943 (after Kursk) and allow multi-Armored divisions to come ashore, then the Germans would have to deal with not only the Infantry divisions armor (either a sherman or TD battalion each) but also a very powerful and mobile armored division threat.

In 1943 the 75mm Sherman and the M10 TD would have been more than a match for any opposition they faced. The Germans were having nightmares getting Panther units to get through the early producution problems.

I would certainly like to see what AT weapons were in Southern France.

 

[thewood]

Just to clarify:

CMBO released 7/00 (I thought it was 2001...)

CMBB released 9/02 ( 2 years and I can understand why with absolutely huge number of units)

CMAK released 12/03 (a pretty short time considering the number of units again)

So we have 3 years and 5 months total between all CM1 releases.

I will never agree that CM1 was a dead engine. Maybe from a graphics standpoint, but BFC could probably have gotten a couple more quick releases out of it in the almost 5 years it took to develop CMSF. There were any number of third party modders that would loved to have put together small OOB penny packs for any number of small operations.

 

[dalem]

Ever since I read that one last year when it came up for discussion here I've felt that that is one of the saddest posts by Steve I've ever seen.

-dale

 

[thewood]

Yeah, even as thick-headed as I can be, I knew that one would come back to haunt him.