Clue to Current State of CMN and Release Date

KG_Jag

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From Steve in post #21:

"The implementation of the unit purchase system was our last major coding task. There's still a lot of coding work to do, but we are moving ahead with "real" scenarios and the campaign construction probably sometime next week. What does that mean in terms of timeframe? Obviously we don't know because we never know until we're done
But obviously we aren't talking about a few weeks to wrap things up.

Steve"

Link:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=91587&page=3
 

Redwolf

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Personally I'd say screw the campaign. It won't work right as released anyway. So why not release the actual game and work on the campaign while people shoot up Shermans and some cash rolls in?
 

dalem

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He also said in the QB thread that they don't have final graphics for the interface completed yet. I dk much about software design, but that sounds like a few months of work to me.

-dale
 

Michael Dorosh

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But obviously we aren't talking about a few weeks to wrap things up.
Huh?

Does that mean less than a few weeks, or more than?

I love how he uses the word "obviously" when he really means anything but.
 

Michael Dorosh

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He also said in the QB thread that they don't have final graphics for the interface completed yet. I dk much about software design, but that sounds like a few months of work to me.

-dale
If so, I'd say you've won your bet.

I don't understand what "campaign construction" means, either. For CM:SF, "campaign construction" was just a matter of putting a timeline together - like a flowchart - for the completed scenarios which were done by individual scenario authors. This was done by a campaign co-ordinator/author/designer or whatever you want to call him. The actual "storyline" was done in advance and the scenarios built to match the storyline, IIRC.

If they are doing this the same way, then either the scenarios are done, or not. Campaign "construction" could be relatively simple - just doing up the "flow" of the completed scenarios - or take much longer, if it means designing all the scenarios from scratch. Also depends on whether they do the scenarios first, or rough out the storyline first. I would imagine they would do the story first, but I guess it doesn't have to be that way.
 

Michael Dorosh

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He also said in the QB thread that they don't have final graphics for the interface completed yet. I dk much about software design, but that sounds like a few months of work to me.

-dale
Interface graphics? Nah, you can skin an interface in an afternoon if you want to. Check out the "total interface conversion mods" for CMX1. They probably have placeholders for them already. Hard part is deciding what kind of look you want. I think I did my ASL conversion (ugly as it was) in a what amounted to a day's worth of work.
 

dalem

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All due respect, MD, you didn't have Steve running your project. :) I believe in BFC's ability to agonize over something simple.

But that's really just me being an ass. I said I dk much and I was right. If it's easy work then cool, it's not a bottleneck for those who are waiting.

As far as your speculation on the campaign part, well, IF the horsing of force picks into the system meant rewriting some of the basic chain of command stuff, then even if they had everything ready yesterday wouldn't they just have to redo and retest everything starting today? I mean, if it is something that core to the design?

-dale
 

Geordie

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The implementation of the unit purchase system was our last major coding task. There's still a lot of coding work to do, but we are moving ahead with "real" scenarios and the campaign construction probably sometime next week. What does that mean in terms of timeframe? Obviously we don't know because we never know until we're done
But obviously we aren't talking about a few weeks to wrap things up.

Steve
Lets look at this statement keeping in mind BFs history with producing CMSF, Operations and Modules.

1. Theres still a bit of coding work to do.

Theres probably still a lot of coding work to do on some things. The games obviously not presentable in any screenshot form right now. Im no game designer and so dont know how long this takes, is a month reasonable?

2. Campaign construction.

This has traditionally taken a while. Campaigns need to be designed and then thoroughly tested. The Brit module was held up for months in the testing after the Marine campaign was seriously flawed. Campaigns therefore can add 2-3 months to their schedule and they havenet started this yet.

3. They are not talking a few weeks to wrap things up.

This, historically with BF has meant months. Every time Steve mentions a week, I think a month.

I think Dalem wins his bet. Thursday is 01 Apr 09, from BFs statement and their historical performance with the less complicated CMSF I think that 4 months from 01 Apr is a conservative estimate. Id say expect this game to arrive any time from 01 Aug but dont be surprised to see this slip farther to the right as time goes on and they encounter the inevitable bugs.

In the meantime, they still have to get CMA out the door and also the mysterious NATO module for CMSF. Id be surprised if we see this one at all.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Lets look at this statement keeping in mind BFs history with producing CMSF, Operations and Modules.

1. Theres still a bit of coding work to do.

Theres probably still a lot of coding work to do on some things. The games obviously not presentable in any screenshot form right now. Im no game designer and so dont know how long this takes, is a month reasonable?
They don't even have a forum of their own nor a name they are ready to go public with, which is interesting.

2. Campaign construction.

This has traditionally taken a while. Campaigns need to be designed and then thoroughly tested. The Brit module was held up for months in the testing after the Marine campaign was seriously flawed. Campaigns therefore can add 2-3 months to their schedule and they havenet started this yet.
They should be tested, but that doesn't mean they will. Depending on how big their playtest pool is, it is possible the same schmucks who are dabbling with the bug testing are the same guys who are designing the scenarios and are the same guys who are playing them over and over and are the same guys who will then have to play them again in the form of the campaign. These are all part-timers doing this after work and on weekends, for absolutely zero pay. You tell me how thoroughly you think that campaign will get tested, or how many times anyone will actually go through it from start to finish. Remembering that from what we know, there are still no "designer tools" such as accelerated time or computer-vs.-computer play to assist in the playtest process.

3. They are not talking a few weeks to wrap things up.

This, historically with BF has meant months. Every time Steve mentions a week, I think a month.

I think Dalem wins his bet. Thursday is 01 Apr 09, from BFs statement and their historical performance with the less complicated CMSF I think that 4 months from 01 Apr is a conservative estimate. Id say expect this game to arrive any time from 01 Aug but dont be surprised to see this slip farther to the right as time goes on and they encounter the inevitable bugs.

In the meantime, they still have to get CMA out the door and also the mysterious NATO module for CMSF. Id be surprised if we see this one at all.
I don't know what they need to do with CMA, probably minimal time commitment for Charles, probably a lot from Moon/Steve and/or whoever does their actual logistics work of packaging, marketing, shipping, sales and liaison with Snowball.

We may find that NATO is a surprise release before CM:N which might account for the delay in CM:N and why they have been so tight-lipped about opening up the forum, etc. Very far outside chance, but possible. Equal possibility that it is vapourware. Somewhere in the middle of those two extremes is the possibility that it does get released down the road sometime.
 

Patrocles

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Personally I'd say screw the campaign. It won't work right as released anyway. So why not release the actual game and work on the campaign while people shoot up Shermans and some cash rolls in?
I agree. I would rather have canned scenarios to start and learn the game. Hopefully, the editor will be robust and full that players can start pumping out good battles asap.
 

Palantir

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I agree. I would rather have canned scenarios to start and learn the game.
Unfortunately that would mean BFC would have to admit that the game was only 1/2 completed and not the best one ever created like CM:SF.

They couldn't possibly just come out and say, "this as more complicated than we thought, but we have a sound plan to continue. The scenarios & QB's are solid with a good core game soooooo, we're going to ship that out at half price, then when we get the other half nailed down we'll offer that at 1/2 price as well, please bear with us, we'll keep you up to date with weekly progress reports."
 

Redwolf

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please please please keep it simple and straightforward. At this point I'm most concerned about them overengineering the whole thing. Their overengineered code, even if it works like in CMx1, doesn't do any good at best of times, but if the project is on the edge it can cause fatal delays and playing pessimations.

If it's stupid and works it's not stupid.
 

Patrocles

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Unfortunately that would mean BFC would have to admit that the game was only 1/2 completed and not the best one ever created like CM:SF.

They couldn't possibly just come out and say, "this as more complicated than we thought, but we have a sound plan to continue. The scenarios & QB's are solid with a good core game soooooo, we're going to ship that out at half price, then when we get the other half nailed down we'll offer that at 1/2 price as well, please bear with us, we'll keep you up to date with weekly progress reports."
good point.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Unfortunately that would mean BFC would have to admit that the game was only 1/2 completed and not the best one ever created like CM:SF.

They couldn't possibly just come out and say, "this as more complicated than we thought, but we have a sound plan to continue. The scenarios & QB's are solid with a good core game soooooo, we're going to ship that out at half price, then when we get the other half nailed down we'll offer that at 1/2 price as well, please bear with us, we'll keep you up to date with weekly progress reports."
But, if the game is as good as Steve is saying it is, they clearly don't have to do that. Best case scenario; CMN blows everyone away, draws back all the CM:SF customers, who promptly forget about NATO; the CMX1 customers return to the fold, and the twitch crowd put down their Gameboys or WTF they play and CM lines up for a round of well-deserved online awards to use in their marketing plan, the way they did with CM:BO. That being the case, they can afford to wait until all the ducks are in a row.

I'm sure that has been the logic with all their past releases, however.
 

Elvis

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But, if the game is as good as Steve is saying it is, they clearly don't have to do that. Best case scenario; CMN blows everyone away, draws back all the CM:SF customers, who promptly forget about NATO; the CMX1 customers return to the fold, and the twitch crowd put down their Gameboys or WTF they play and CM lines up for a round of well-deserved online awards to use in their marketing plan, the way they did with CM:BO. That being the case, they can afford to wait until all the ducks are in a row.

I'm sure that has been the logic with all their past releases, however.
I understand you are using an extreme case to make you point but still your point is correct. There is more incentive to release the game finished than there is to rush it.
 

[hirr]Leto

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Although BFC think they have their timetable well in hand, along comes a terrorist! ALLAH ACKBAR!!

BOOM!

The game gets pushed back three years as Charles glass jar gets pipe bombed.

Who cares?

The game will come out when the game comes out. I can see why Steve gets all tickletrunk on every body's ass as anything he says is analyzed 15 ways to Sunday.

So far, looks good, but nobody will know **** until its released, and until then, all we have to go on is the crap that is shoveled from Steve's Catholic boys choir... no offence, Elvis, you are a good man.

Cheers!

Leto
 

dalem

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[hirr]Leto;1267670 said:
Although BFC think they have their timetable well in hand, along comes a terrorist! ALLAH ACKBAR!!

BOOM!

The game gets pushed back three years as Charles glass jar gets pipe bombed.

Who cares?

The game will come out when the game comes out. I can see why Steve gets all tickletrunk on every body's ass as anything he says is analyzed 15 ways to Sunday.

So far, looks good, but nobody will know **** until its released, and until then, all we have to go on is the crap that is shoveled from Steve's Catholic boys choir... no offence, Elvis, you are a good man.

Cheers!

Leto
Mmm, his legions of adoring fans aren't the ones setting unrealistic and stupid drop-dead dates: BFCSteve is. Sow, reap, etc.

-dale
 

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dalem is exactly correct here. Despite Steves rather obscure claims to the contrary he is the one who has constantly given out dates and times for releases of all of their games and modules.

To claim otherwise is ludicrous, a simple search of the BFC forum can turn up various quotes regarding CMN alone. My favourite being the one that CMN would definitely be out by Xmas 2009.

Steves, words, no one elses. So when he comes along and says 'we have always said it will be finished when its finished' thats pretty much Bull.

Personally, I like the look of the new CMN game, obviously gameplay may be different but it looks OK. I also dont mind if they take another ten years on it, but I do get miffed when Steve et al deny they drive peoples expectations.

At least the latest bone doenst mention any release dates.
 

Sgt_Kelly

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Personally, I like the look of the new CMN game
I'm not exactly blown away by how the town looks. Still nothing but rigid straight lines and it's all way too crisp and clean. No sign of anything aged or dirtied up.

Maybe those aren't the final textures yet as CMSF looked better to me in this regard.
 
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