CC Reaction Fire D7.2 and Thh G1.421

Ole Boe

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bebakken said:
I have to admit, Ole, I am very surprised... :surprise:

D7.2: "Reaction Fire is conducted during the MPh by the DEFENDER who uses it to attack a vehicle in that DEFENDER's ... Location. There are two types of Reaction Fire: ... and Non-CC Reaction Fire (7.22), which is resolved on a TK Table or the IFT and which can be used only vs OVR."

In the original example in this thread, the LMG was being used by the DEFENDER during the MPh versus a non-OVR vehicle in its Location. That makes it Reaction Fire. That means that Non-CC Reaction Fire is NA, since the AFV was not OVR.
This is all fine, but we obviously read different things into D7.2. What I see in that rule is that the only time you can use Reaction Fire is when a vehicle enters your Location and OVR you.

I do not see in that rule, that Reaction Fire is the only attack such a unit can use though. Instead of (or in addition to) Reaction Fire, it can use normal DFF when a vehicle enters the Location.

I don't want to say it, but... that seems pretty clear to me. ;)
Its gonna bite you too - you know :devil:
 

Treadhead

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Ole Boe said:
AFAIK, there is nothing that prevents the ordnance to use normal DFF based on the OVR MP before the OVR is conducted.
IF the ordnance in question is in the hex being entered and OVR, then you are incorrect.

There is no such thing as "normal" DFF versus a vehicle in your Location. It is called "Reaction Fire", by definition in D7.2. And versus an OVR, "Reaction Fire vs an OVRing vehicle is resolved immediately after the resolution of that OVR."

It amuses me that there has been such a detailed analysis of D7.21 and D7.22, but the very basis of Reaction Fire (D7.2) is being violated. :)

Regards,
Bruce Bakken
 

klasmalmstrom

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Ole Boe said:
This is all fine, but we obviously read different things into D7.2. What I see in that rule is that the only time you can use Reaction Fire is when a vehicle enters your Location and OVR you.

I do not see in that rule, that Reaction Fire is the only attack such a unit can use though. Instead of (or in addition to) Reaction Fire, it can use normal DFF when a vehicle enters the Location.
This is what I think as well.
 

Ole Boe

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bebakken said:
IF the ordnance in question is in the hex being entered and OVR, then you are incorrect.
I disgaree, but will instead say I still agree with my previous posts :laugh:

There is no such thing as "normal" DFF versus a vehicle in your Location. It is called "Reaction Fire", by definition in D7.2.
I believe you misinterprete D7.2 here. So lets look at it:

D7.2: "Reaction Fire is conducted during the MPh by the DEFENDER who uses it to attack a vehicle in that DEFENDER's ... Location. There are two types of Reaction Fire: ... and Non-CC Reaction Fire (7.22), which is resolved on a TK Table or the IFT and which can be used only vs OVR."

This tells us what Reaction Fire is, and when it can be used. It does not say that other types of fire is illegal in this situation though.

In other words.
It says RF can be used when X is true, but this is not equal to saying that DFF cannot be used when X is true.

To support my argument, look at 5.64 OVR PREVENTATION. It describes how a Gun that already has comsumed all its normal fire capability can fire normal DFF (i.e. not Recation Fire) before the OVR. Nothing indicates that only Guns that have consumed their normal fire capability can fire normal DFF.

And versus an OVR, "Reaction Fire vs an OVRing vehicle is resolved immediately after the resolution of that OVR."
I agree with this, but I still maintain that the shot in question was normal DFF, not Reaction Fire.

It amuses me that there has been such a detailed analysis of D7.21 and D7.22, but the very basis of Reaction Fire (D7.2) is being violated. :)
It amuses me that you think D7.2 says more than it does ;)
 

Treadhead

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Ole Boe said:
I do not see in that rule, that Reaction Fire is the only attack such a unit can use though. Instead of (or in addition to) Reaction Fire, it can use normal DFF when a vehicle enters the Location.
I'm going to try and walk through it.

If an AFV enters your Location without OVR, you claim that you may make a normal DFF attack against it. I would assume that normal DFF includes all fire within (and up to the limits of) its present capabilities, using TPBF/ordnance/FT/Thrown-DC in the normal manner.

But that is exactly what is defined as "Non-CC Reaction Fire" in D7.22! And D7.2 says that Non-CC Reaction Fire may only be used versus an OVR.

So, if you say, "this is normal DFF", it is allowed. But if you say, "this is Non-CC Reaction Fire", it is not allowed???

I do not believe that is correct. I believe that D7.2 is defining for us how we may conduct Defensive Fire during the enemy MPh when an enemy vehicle enters the Location. If what you say is correct, then a DEFENDER may always use ordance in the same hex as DFF, and it would hardly be necessary to then again further define "Non-CC Reaction Fire" (which, after all, according to you can be used at all times and not just versus OVR.)

There would, according to your interpretation, only be CC Reaction Fire, and normal DFF.

No, I believe that D7.2 tells us that an attack during the MPh versus a vehicle in the same Location is called Reaction Fire, and then it tells us how to conduct Reaction Fire. But hey, don't take my word for it. ;)

Regards,
Bruce Bakken
 

Ole Boe

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bebakken said:
I'm going to try and walk through it.
Good, but as you've already seen from my last post, I still disagree ;)

If an AFV enters your Location without OVR, you claim that you may make a normal DFF attack against it. I would assume that normal DFF includes all fire within (and up to the limits of) its present capabilities, using TPBF/ordnance/FT/Thrown-DC in the normal manner.
Yes, and even over the normal limits if the AFV declares an OVR, by using OVR Prevention,

But that is exactly what is defined as "Non-CC Reaction Fire" in D7.22! And D7.2 says that Non-CC Reaction Fire may only be used versus an OVR.
No, D7.2 defines what Non-CC Reaction Fire is and when it can be used. This does not preclude the use of normal DFF (at least I don't think so).

So, if you say, "this is normal DFF", it is allowed. But if you say, "this is Non-CC Reaction Fire", it is not allowed???
No, if no OVR is declared (or before it is performed), any DFF is treated as normal DFF. Since Reaction Fire is not legal I simply cannot say "this is Non-CC reaction Fire", just as I cannot say "this is DFF" during the PFPh.

I do not believe that is correct. I believe that D7.2 is defining for us how we may conduct Defensive Fire during the enemy MPh when an enemy vehicle enters the Location. If what you say is correct, then a DEFENDER may always use ordance in the same hex as DFF, and it would hardly be necessary to then again further define "Non-CC Reaction Fire" (which, after all, according to you can be used at all times and not just versus OVR.)
No, according to me, Non-CC Reaction Fire can only be used after an OVR, but Non-CC Reaction Fire is better than normal DFF (which can be used before the OVR) because the Gun doesn't pay case A or E, and it automatically hits the rear target facing.
This is an interesting decision: Do you fire before the OVR, with less chance of a hit and less chance of hitting the rear, or do you calmly wait until the AFV has OVR you and fire a much better shot in the AFV's rear?

There would, according to your interpretation, only be CC Reaction Fire, and normal DFF.
No, now you misinterprete what I say. I say that
1) If an AFV enters the Location and doesn't declare OVR, there is normal DFF only.
2) If an AFV enters the Location and declares OVR, there is:
a) Normal DFF (including OVR Prevention) before the OVR is performed.
b) CC and Non-CC Reaction Fire after the OVR is performed.

No, I believe that D7.2 tells us that an attack during the MPh versus a vehicle in the same Location is called Reaction Fire, and then it tells us how to conduct Reaction Fire. But hey, don't take my word for it. ;)
Good, because I don't believe D7.2 says that much. I can understand your interpretation, but I think it goes too far, but at least we're both amused :D
 
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Ole Boe

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P.S. I have 3 more posts than you on the forum, so my opinion obviosuly has much greater weight :D
 
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Ole Boe

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I'm at home checking the Overrun Flowchart now.

The chart lists normal ordnance or IFT attacks as possible, both in "Defensive Fire Options Before OVR" and "Defensive Fire Options with no OVR", while restricting it to Reaction Fire in "Defensive Fire Options After OVR".

So while I can see that Bruce Bakken's interpretation also makes sense, the OVR Flowchart shows that my interpretation is the correct one. :D :laugh: :toast:
 

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Ole Boe said:
I don't have the ASOP here (and yes, I know it takes presedence), but D7.21 says:

After completing its attack, that DEFENDER and all of its possessed SW (including those Inherent) and Guns are marked with a CC counter, if the vehicle has survived, to prohibit non-CC Reaction Fire attacks, and also with a First or Final Fire counter as appropriate for that attack.
And apparently did not think to check MMPs website for Q&A/Errata:

D7.21 Is a CC marker placed immediately after a CC Reaction Fire attack is made?

A. Yes, unless the vehicle and PRC are eliminated by the attack. {J1}

D7.22 Is a CC marker placed immediately after a non-CC Reaction Fire (or any other same-Location TPBF) attack? Is the CC marker removed when only one side occupies the Location?

A. No, not until the armed vehicle (or unit) ends its MPh in the defender's Location (see also A7.211, A8.31, A12.151, A13.61, A15.432, A25.234, E9.43, and G1.423). Yes. {J1}

Because only the THH attacked using CC Reaction Fire the location would not be marked unless the vehicle ended its movement there. The THH is removed from play immediately upon making his CC attack {G1.425}

However, it makes little sense to place a CC counter until after the vehicle is through moving anyways, since if it leaves the location the CC counter would be removed.

Ole Boe said:
Careful with your words now…
My comment was strictly limited to the application of case J – which is what your were quibbling about in your earlier comment about Motion vs. non-Stopped. The fact that the vehicle was a Moving Target is what enables case J. A vehicle can be non-Stopped and still not be considered a Moving Target with respect to case J.
 

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WaterRabbit said:
My comment was strictly limited to the application of case J – which is what your were quibbling about in your earlier comment about Motion vs. non-Stopped. The fact that the vehicle was a Moving Target is what enables case J. A vehicle can be non-Stopped and still not be considered a Moving Target with respect to case J.
Understood. And my comment was quite tongue-in-cheek. I like the role of being anal retentive when it comes to the different misuse of the terms moving, Moving Target, Non-Stopped and Motion :devious:
 

Brian W

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There is also old official q&a about this. Personally, I have always felt that the original intent was that the target of an OVR could only use Reaction Fire or OVR Prevention. However, that is not been the official line in the last 15 years.

Q&A said:
D7.1 When a vehicle declares an OVR, may the DEFENDER target attack before the OVR is resolved? If yes, would that DEFENDER have to use Reaction Fire?
A. Yes. No – it would be Reaction Fire only if conducted after the OVR resolution (see the last sentence of D7.2). [An93a; An95w; An96; Mw]
 

Ole Boe

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Brian W said:
There is also old official q&a about this. Personally, I have always felt that the original intent was that the target of an OVR could only use Reaction Fire or OVR Prevention. However, that is not been the official line in the last 15 years.
I looked for any Q&A, but couldn't find any. Since the OVR Flowchart is clear, then Q&A isn't necessary though.

Regarding original intent:

When it comes to situations where the AFV enters the Location without any OVR really think it wouldn't think the intent was to not allow any DFF by the unit (I don't say you mean that's the intent either).

When it comes to actual OVR situations, I can only guess, but I have one reason to think that the intent actually was to allow normal DFF before the OVR:

OVR Prevetion is a special form of normal DFF that is used by Guns that have already consumed their normal (including IF) fire capability, but not by Guns who still have normal (including IF) fire capability left. It would be absurd if the only Guns that have time to fire before the OVR are the those who have already consumed their normal fire capability.
 
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Brian W

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Ole Boe said:
OVR Prevetion is a special form of normal DFF that is used by Guns that have already consumed their normal (including IF) fire capability, but not by Guns who still have normal (including IF) fire capability left. It would be absurd if the only Guns that have time to fire before the OVR are the those who have already consumed their normal fire capability.
Actually, you have it backwards. C5.641 specifies that OVR Prevention applies to all guns, not just those using IF [EXC: IF penalties do not apply]. I take that to mean that the original intent was that the targets of the OVR cannot use normal DFF.

But original intent is rather moot at this point.
 

Brian W

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Ole Boe said:
I looked for any Q&A, but couldn't find any. Since the OVR Flowchart is clear, then Q&A isn't necessary though.
Well the charts do not superceed the rules if there is a conflict. The official q&a I quoted was old, from ASLRBv1. While old q&a no longer applies to ASLRBv2, I think that it indicates the answer you will get if you submit another q&a.
 

Ole Boe

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Brian W said:
Actually, you have it backwards. C5.641 specifies that OVR Prevention applies to all guns, not just those using IF [EXC: IF penalties do not apply]. I take that to mean that the original intent was that the targets of the OVR cannot use normal DFF.
I agree, I didn't read C5.641, which makes it clear that you are correct. So with that rule, the "normal" DFF allowed before the declared OVR is penalized as OVR Prevention when manning a Gun (regardless of whether the Gun is marked by a fire counter). Such DFF by SW ordnance is not penalized though, which I think is weird.

So I actually begin to agree with you that when an OVR is declared, the original intention was to only allow OVR Perevention DFF from the units being OVR.

When no OVR is declared, normal DFF is allowed though (and I believe this was the original intention as well).
 
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Ole Boe said:
No, C5.5 says: "Any Gun firing at a target within its own hex must add the +2 DRM of Case E.".

The LMG used in the attack is not a Gun, and therefore doesn't have to add this DRM. This is also evident from the FIRER-BASED HIT DETERMINATION DRM chart, where case E is marked with an "S" (NA to SW).
Well, here's a lesson learned. I was playing "RHA at Bay" at CASLO a couple weeks ago when a German vehicle tried to overrun my squad/LMG combination in the "town square" hex surrounded on all sides by a wall.

The unit was not marked with any kind of fire marker and I scored an underbelly hit with the LMG, rolling a 3 on the TK, defeating the vehicle's aerial AF. After some lengthy rules searching, my opponent said I hadn't hit the vehicle in the first place due to a +2 mod for in-hex fire.

He wasn't trying to "game" me, but after reading this, it looks like I did get the hit after all. Please pardon me while I enter primal scream therapy :D
 

The Purist

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"After some lengthy rules searching, my opponent said I hadn't hit the vehicle in the first place due to a +2 mod for in-hex fire."

Eeeewwww. :eek: Yes, you would have got the hit. Until the vehicle safely makes it over the wall it has not entered your hex of the board 10 town. It's 'belly up' in the adjacent hex. 'Tis how I read the rule.
 

Ole Boe

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The Purist said:
Eeeewwww. :eek: Yes, you would have got the hit. Until the vehicle safely makes it over the wall it has not entered your hex of the board 10 town. It's 'belly up' in the adjacent hex. 'Tis how I read the rule.
Well' in this case, the weapon that fired was a LMG, not a Gun, and case E applies to Guns only, so no case E regardless of whether the AFV was attacked in the adjacent or same hex.
 

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I am retracting my original statement regarding DFF versus a non-OVRing vehicle. I found this is A12.41:
"... if no OVR is made, the vehicle it (sic) still subject to attack (including CC Reaction Fire: D7.21) by any eligible unit(s) in the normal manner."
So, I was incorrect with my original assertion.

However, I still contend that versus an OVR AFV, the target of the OVR may only use Reaction Fire, and not "normal" DFF. Otherwise, I really can find no reason for a LATW to use Non-CC Reaction Fire if "normal" DFF is available, especially since "normal" DFF would be resolved before the OVR is resolved. (IMO, automatically hitting the rear Target Facing is not reason enough to withhold fire until Non-CC Reaction Fire.)

Notwithstanding the Q&A that Brian mentioned... and which he also pointed out was obsolete anyway with regard to the 2nd Ed ASLRB...

If it came down to lobbying for a particular point of view, I would lobby hard for my view (if such lobbying would even matter; others have Perry's ear far more than I do.) Since it comes down to a "rules argument" in this forum... I don't think further discussion will get anywhere.

If it ever comes up during play, I'll deal with it at that time (or not, depending on how I feel at the moment.)

Is there a smilie for surrender?... How 'bout... :hurray:

Regards,
Bruce Bakken
 

Larry

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Q&A from the compilation:

D7.1 When a vehicle declares an OVR, may the
DEFENDER target attack before the OVR is
resolved? If yes, would that DEFENDER have to
use Reaction Fire?
A. Yes. No – it would be Reaction Fire only if
conducted after the OVR resolution (see the last
sentence of D7.2). [An93a; An95w; An96; Mw]

Same Q&A posted on MMP website. Seems pretty official ...
 
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