CC Reaction Fire D7.2 and Thh G1.421

MajorDomo

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A BU Chinese T-26 tank VBM'd a concealed Japanese 347/lmg in a light jungle hex.
1. The Jap squad generated a Tank Hunter Hero, losing concealment. The Thh failed it's ATMM roll and attacked using CC Reaction Fire (CCV 5, -1 Street Fighting ambush, +2 vehicle motion) which had no effect.
2. The squad fired it's lmg (to hit of 8, TK of 6 [normal 4, +2 penetration, -1 side armor hit on To Hit roll]) which had no effect. Lmg marked with First Fire.
3. The squad attacked using CC Reaction Fire (CCV 5, -1 Street Fighting ambush, +2 vehicle motion) which had no effect. Squad was also marked with First Fire.
4. The squad attacked using Subesequent First Fire (CCV 4, +2 vehicle motion) which had no effect. Squad/lmg marked with Final Fire.

Did we do this correctly?
Thanks,
Rich
 

Ole Boe

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Point 3 was incorrect in applying the -1 Street Fighting Ambush DRM, beacuse D7.211 says:

However, Street Fighting CC Reaction Fire may not be attempted by a unit that is, and/or possesses a SW - (including Inherent)/Gun that is, already marked with a First/Final/Intensive/No Fire counter.
Since your squad possessed an LMG marked with First Fire, Street Fighting (and thus its -1 DRM) was NA.

I think point 4 is correct however, since unlike what Ron says, I cannot see any place which restricts a unit marked with a CC counter from using CC Reaction Fire.

A final note though, applying the +2 DRM for vehicle motion during points 1, 3 and 4 is incorrect. A vehicle is never in Motion during its own MPh. The AFV was Non-Stopped though, and therefore gets the same +2 DRM ;)
 

Jazz

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Ole Boe said:
A final note though, applying the +2 DRM for vehicle motion during points 1, 3 and 4 is incorrect. A vehicle is never in Motion during its own MPh. The AFV was Non-Stopped though, and therefore gets the same +2 DRM ;)
I think there would be an additional +2 DRM for the TH DR shooting within the same hex?
 

Ole Boe

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Jazz said:
I think there would be an additional +2 DRM for the TH DR shooting within the same hex?
No, C5.5 says: "Any Gun firing at a target within its own hex must add the +2 DRM of Case E.".

The LMG used in the attack is not a Gun, and therefore doesn't have to add this DRM. This is also evident from the FIRER-BASED HIT DETERMINATION DRM chart, where case E is marked with an "S" (NA to SW).
 

Jazz

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Ole Boe said:
No, C5.5 says: "Any Gun firing at a target within its own hex must add the +2 DRM of Case E.".

The LMG used in the attack is not a Gun, and therefore doesn't have to add this DRM. This is also evident from the FIRER-BASED HIT DETERMINATION DRM chart, where case E is marked with an "S" (NA to SW).
I stand corrected.....
 

MajorDomo

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Looks like we delete the -1 for Street Fighting Ambush in #3 and we call the vehicle non-stopped in it's Mph for an equivalent +2.
Thanks
Rich
 

WaterRabbit

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da priest said:
Well number 4 should not have occured since in 3 you mark them with a CC marker...
I believe that you only place the CC marker at the end of the tank's movement phase (ASoP 3.41A).

That the vehicle was Moving was sufficient to invoke Case J, whether it was Stopped or non-Stopped. :D

If the squad has maintained rate with the LMG, he could have attempted Street Fighting, however, since he lost rate he cannot.

The only point that is bothering me in this question is D7.2 "and Non-CC Reaction Fire (7.22), which is resolved on a TK Table or the IFT and which can be used only vs an OVR."

I am trying to conceive of an example where this would be a restriction. If the tank went through the woods, instead of bypassing them, would the squad then be unable to use the LMG?
 

Treadhead

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MajorDomo said:
A BU Chinese T-26 tank VBM'd a concealed Japanese 347/lmg in a light jungle hex.
1. The Jap squad generated a Tank Hunter Hero, losing concealment. The Thh failed it's ATMM roll and attacked using CC Reaction Fire (CCV 5, -1 Street Fighting ambush, +2 vehicle motion) which had no effect.
2. The squad fired it's lmg (to hit of 8, TK of 6 [normal 4, +2 penetration, -1 side armor hit on To Hit roll]) which had no effect. Lmg marked with First Fire.
3. The squad attacked using CC Reaction Fire (CCV 5, -1 Street Fighting ambush, +2 vehicle motion) which had no effect. Squad was also marked with First Fire.
4. The squad attacked using Subesequent First Fire (CCV 4, +2 vehicle motion) which had no effect. Squad/lmg marked with Final Fire.

Did we do this correctly?
Thanks,
Rich
Number 1 looks okay to me.

Number 2 is incorrect; since the AFV was not conducting an OVR, you may not use Non-CC Reaction Fire. (If the AFV had been OVRing, then Number 2 would be okay.)

Number 3 is okay, as is. If you had used Non-CC Reaction Fire in Number 2, the Street Fighting Ambush DRM would not have applied.

Number 4 seems fine to me.

Regards,
Bruce Bakken
 

Treadhead

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WaterRabbit said:
The only point that is bothering me in this question is D7.2 "and Non-CC Reaction Fire (7.22), which is resolved on a TK Table or the IFT and which can be used only vs an OVR."

I am trying to conceive of an example where this would be a restriction. If the tank went through the woods, instead of bypassing them, would the squad then be unable to use the LMG?
If the AFV is conducting an OVR, then you have the option of using Non-CC Reaction Fire; i.e., you may use the LMG as ordnance, for instance.

If the AFV is not conducting an OVR, even if fully entering the hex (as opposed to using VBM), then you may not use the LMG as ordnance. Your only choice by units in the AFV Location would be to use CC Reaction Fire.

Regards,
Bruce Bakken
 

WaterRabbit

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My initial reaction was exactly in line with your answer, that #2 is not allowed.

I almost came to this conclusion as well. However, if the AFV is not conducting an OVR, then shooting at it with the LMG is not Reaction Fire -- it is just A7.212. And while the Overrun Flow chart is non-authoritative, it implies that #2 is allowed.

Otherwise, what you are saying is that if a tank drives into my hex without conducting an OVR and I have an ATR, for example, I cannot shoot at that tank until it leaves my hex or the Defensive Final Fire Phase, whichever comes first.
 

Ole Boe

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bebakken said:
Number 1 looks okay to me.

Number 2 is incorrect; since the AFV was not conducting an OVR, you may not use Non-CC Reaction Fire. (If the AFV had been OVRing, then Number 2 would be okay.)
But normal DFF is allowed right? And the DFF shot with the LMG was simply that, normal DFF based on the first of the two MP spent by the AFV. So it should be perfectly legal.

Number 3 is okay, as is. If you had used Non-CC Reaction Fire in Number 2, the Street Fighting Ambush DRM would not have applied.
As I previously wrote, it would also not apply if the LMG had been used in normal DFF (unless it maintained ROF).
 

Ole Boe

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bebakken said:
If the AFV is not conducting an OVR, even if fully entering the hex (as opposed to using VBM), then you may not use the LMG as ordnance. Your only choice by units in the AFV Location would be to use CC Reaction Fire.
This is unknown to me. Do you have any rule reference? I cannot see anything in the rules stopping the LMG from using a normal ordnance attack as per A9.6.
 

Ole Boe

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WaterRabbit said:
I believe that you only place the CC marker at the end of the tank's movement phase (ASoP 3.41A).
I don't have the ASOP here (and yes, I know it takes presedence), but D7.21 says:

After completing its attack, that DEFENDER and all of its possessed SW (including those Inherent) and Guns are marked with a CC counter, if the vehicle has survived, to prohibit non-CC Reaction Fire attacks, and also with a First or Final Fire counter as appropriate for that attack.

So from that it certainly looks as if the CC counter is placed immedeately. It doesn't stop any subsequent CC Reaction Fire attacks (AFAIK) though.

That the vehicle was Moving was sufficient to invoke Case J, whether it was Stopped or non-Stopped. :D
Careful with your words now. I didn't write the Moving/Motion/Non-Stopped article in the 97 Annual for nothing :devious:

The AFV in question is: moving, Non-Stopped and Moving (vehicular) Target, but it is not in Motion.

Moving simply means that it can be targeted for DFF (it is the currently moving unit); Non-Stopped that case L doesn't apply, and that it receives a +2 DRM when attacked in CC; Moving Target that it gets the +2 DRM (case J) when attacked on the TH table.

The only point that is bothering me in this question is D7.2 "and Non-CC Reaction Fire (7.22), which is resolved on a TK Table or the IFT and which can be used only vs an OVR."
Non-CC Reaction Fire is slightly different than normal Defensive First Fire. You use the former when the AFV has overrun you, and the lattter when it has not.

I am trying to conceive of an example where this would be a restriction. If the tank went through the woods, instead of bypassing them, would the squad then be unable to use the LMG?
No, it could still use normal DFF.

However, if the AFV is using OVR, the DEFENDER can use Non-CC Reaction Fire, which means that case E is NA (for Guns), and that the rear Target Facing is automatically hit.
If the AFV is entering normally, without any OVR, any Gun must pay case E +2 DRM, and both SW and Guns must roll for target facing hit.

I think those two are the (most important) restrictions.
 

klasmalmstrom

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Ole Boe said:
However, if the AFV is using OVR, the DEFENDER can use Non-CC Reaction Fire, which means that case E is NA (for Guns), and that the rear Target Facing is automatically hit.
If the AFV is entering normally, without any OVR, any Gun must pay case E +2 DRM, and both SW and Guns must roll for target facing hit.

I think those two are the (most important) restrictions.
OK, but if the vehicle is entering and using OVR couldn't you still fire a Gun as normal DFF (using Case E and the col. fire for hit location) as well, or is the non-CC Reaction Fire (i.e. an attack after the OVR) the onlt option ?
(Which if the AFV is then knocked-out/immo. halves the OVR FP).
 

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klasmalmstrom said:
OK, but if the vehicle is entering and using OVR couldn't you still fire a Gun as normal DFF (using Case E and the col. fire for hit location) as well, or is the non-CC Reaction Fire (i.e. an attack after the OVR) the onlt option ?
(Which if the AFV is then knocked-out/immo. halves the OVR FP).
AFAIK, there is nothing that prevents the ordnance to use normal DFF based on the OVR MP before the OVR is conducted.

The reason to do this is (as you write) to halve the OVR, but also to be able to fire at all before being killed by the OVR.

The reasons not to is that you must change the CA of the Gun (unless the hex the AFV entered from is already inside the CA) and pay case E, and roll for hit Location.
Those DRM will often mean that its becomes very hard to hit (+2 case J, +2 case E, +x case A instead of only +2 case J) and if the frontal armor is good you will guaranteed hit the front instead of the rear. :p
 

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Ole Boe said:
This is unknown to me. Do you have any rule reference? I cannot see anything in the rules stopping the LMG from using a normal ordnance attack as per A9.6.
I have to admit, Ole, I am very surprised... :surprise:

D7.2: "Reaction Fire is conducted during the MPh by the DEFENDER who uses it to attack a vehicle in that DEFENDER's ... Location. There are two types of Reaction Fire: ... and Non-CC Reaction Fire (7.22), which is resolved on a TK Table or the IFT and which can be used only vs OVR."

In the original example in this thread, the LMG was being used by the DEFENDER during the MPh versus a non-OVR vehicle in its Location. That makes it Reaction Fire. That means that Non-CC Reaction Fire is NA, since the AFV was not OVR.

I don't want to say it, but... that seems pretty clear to me. ;)

Regards,
Bruce Bakken
 

Treadhead

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WaterRabbit said:
I almost came to this conclusion as well. However, if the AFV is not conducting an OVR, then shooting at it with the LMG is not Reaction Fire -- it is just A7.212. And while the Overrun Flow chart is non-authoritative, it implies that #2 is allowed.
According to D7.2, firing at a vehicle in your own Location during the enemy MPh is Reaction Fire. (I.e., "Reaction Fire" is what we call this particular DFF.)

As far as the Overrun Flowchart is concerned, I'll stick to the rules.

Regards,
Bruce Bakken
 

Treadhead

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Ole Boe said:
But normal DFF is allowed right? And the DFF shot with the LMG was simply that, normal DFF based on the first of the two MP spent by the AFV. So it should be perfectly legal.
No, it is not normal DFF. It is Reaction Fire, because the enemy vehicle is in the DEFENDER's Location.

This is defined pretty well (IMO) in D7.2.

Regards,
Bruce Bakken
 

Treadhead

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klasmalmstrom said:
OK, but if the vehicle is entering and using OVR couldn't you still fire a Gun as normal DFF (using Case E and the col. fire for hit location) as well, or is the non-CC Reaction Fire (i.e. an attack after the OVR) the onlt option ?
(Which if the AFV is then knocked-out/immo. halves the OVR FP).
No, Defensive First Fire at a vehicle in your own Location is Reaction Fire. That's the defined in D7.2.

You cannot use Reaction Fire until after the OVR is resolved. Last sentence of D7.2: "Reaction Fire vs an OVRing vehicle is resolved immediately after the resolution of that OVR."

If you wait until the OVR is declared before deciding to fire the Gun at the same-Location enemy AFV, you will have to suffer the OVR first.

Regards,
Bruce Bakken
 
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