B28 Mines

Nearmiss

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Fully tracked AFV enters an A-T minefield and survives the entry attack. Can the AFV now stop and then restart in reverse and then leave the minefield via the hexside it previously entered without undergoing a second attack?
 

R Hooks

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Pretty sure its no, surviving the mine entry roll is a game element, the mine attack consists of surviving an exit roll as well.
 

Eagle4ty

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YES you may by using the TB created when entering a minefield (B28.61 TRAIL BREAK: A TB may also be used to show fully-tracked AFV movement into or through a minefield [EXC: the TB may not be placed if that AFV is using VBM]....A unit exiting a minefield hex via a TB in that hex is not attacked by that minefield., & B13.4212-13.4212)
 

von Marwitz

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YES you may by using the TB created when entering a minefield (B28.61 TRAIL BREAK: A TB may also be used to show fully-tracked AFV movement into or through a minefield [EXC: the TB may not be placed if that AFV is using VBM]....A unit exiting a minefield hex via a TB in that hex is not attacked by that minefield., & B13.4212-13.4212)
Seems to make sense. But there are questions:

I suppose that the 'Partial Trailbreak' created by the vehicle upon entry is considered a 'Trailbreak' for moving out the same way that the tank has moved in?

Could the tank turn in the Minefield without attack before moving out along the (partial) trailbreak?
Or would it have to do so using reverse movement?

von Marwitz
 

Eagle4ty

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Seems to make sense. But there are questions:

I suppose that the 'Partial Trailbreak' created by the vehicle upon entry is considered a 'Trailbreak' for moving out the same way that the tank has moved in?

Could the tank turn in the Minefield without attack before moving out along the (partial) trailbreak?
Or would it have to do so using reverse movement?

von Marwitz
Rule wise there is no minefield attack for simply changing a VCA in a minefield (perhaps a neutral steer movement?), so if retaining sufficient MPs I don't see why the vehicle would necessarily have to reverse move out using the TB. And B28.61 certainly implies that a partial TB is still a TB; at least as I see it.
 

von Marwitz

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Rule wise there is no minefield attack for simply changing a VCA in a minefield (perhaps a neutral steer movement?), so if retaining sufficient MPs I don't see why the vehicle would necessarily have to reverse move out using the TB. And B28.61 certainly implies that a partial TB is still a TB; at least as I see it.
Actually, I have never thought about this possibility. If it is a 1 AT-Minefield, I would carry on, I reckon. If it is a 2 or 3 AT-Minefield, then turning might be the better part of valor.

I would seem funny, though, that Infantry would not have the same or similar option for AP-Minefields.

von Marwitz
 

R Hooks

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Well possibly IF YOU KNOW you entered a AT minefield, but last time I played we used secret dr. .
 

Eagle4ty

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Actually, I have never thought about this possibility. If it is a 1 AT-Minefield, I would carry on, I reckon. If it is a 2 or 3 AT-Minefield, then turning might be the better part of valor.

I would seem funny, though, that Infantry would not have the same or similar option for AP-Minefields.

von Marwitz
For a vehicle if they had the ability to actually neutral steer (each track going in the opposite direction) I could envision exiting rather simply by following your entrance tracks as one could spin the AFV within its own radius. However I believe most tracked AFVs of the time did not possess this capability and relied upon a pivot steer (one track idle and the other the driving force) which would take a larger turning radius. Probably determining which vehicles had differing abilities are out of the scope of ASL combat so I presume it's a game mechanic to allow at least some discretion to AFVs in such a predicament. As for the strength of the minefield, one usually doesn't know (and I always defer to my opponent to maintain a FOW-if they would cheat they're not worth playing anyway).

I could see an SSR (or errata to the rule-not really expected) that would allow infantry to assault move (or perhaps minimum move) out of a minefield without an attack, but to allow them to exit in the same MPh the way they came in without a minefield attack would violate the basic ASL premise of move and forget [EXC: by placement of game control counters (e.g. TB)]. Having probed my way into/out of a minefield I can only say it's an excruciating slow process for a squad of people even if the were fairly certain the path they took to enter it in the 1st place. Certainly a reason for being CX afterwards as you're frazzled and certainly need time to recover.
 

Eagle4ty

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Well possibly IF YOU KNOW you entered a AT minefield, but last time I played we used secret dr. .
I haven't used a secret DR/dr for some time but I would never ask my opponent to verify the strength of the minefield, You get some intell but if the DR/dr is low enough it still maintains a healthy FOW.
 

R Hooks

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The last game I mentioned was a CCR that all AT strength is 1, we played it twice and both times I believe the AT mines accounted for 3 AC or tanks out of 8, tanks with out radios going through restricted terrain funnels are in danger.
 

Eagle4ty

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The last game I mentioned was a CCR that all AT strength is 1, we played it twice and both times I believe the AT mines accounted for 3 AC or tanks out of 8, tanks with out radios going through restricted terrain funnels are in danger.
Yeah, Nearmiss got two of my best tanks with minefields the last scenario we played. I was just kind of wondering if he has a thing for vehicles in minefields.:eek:🤣
 

Koestler

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Actually, I have never thought about this possibility. If it is a 1 AT-Minefield, I would carry on, I reckon. If it is a 2 or 3 AT-Minefield, then turning might be the better part of valor.

I would seem funny, though, that Infantry would not have the same or similar option for AP-Minefields.

von Marwitz

Aber Herr Oberst, usually one does not know whether it is a 1 AT-Minefield: only if the roll is a '2' or all other OB mines have been accounted for.
 

von Marwitz

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Aber Herr Oberst, usually one does not know whether it is a 1 AT-Minefield: only if the roll is a '2' or all other OB mines have been accounted for.
That is correct. But...

... usually the Oberst has a good hunch.

Rarely, Mines are present in abundance in a scenario. Often, one has to weigh wether to use AP-Mines or exchange some of them into AT-Mines. Usually, the value of AP-Mines is higher than that of AT-Mines except if the terrain provides for very few bottlenecks that AFV have to navigate. Especially for AT-Mines, normally there is way too much ground for too few Mines to cover.

For that reason, players tend to use 1 AT-Minefields and spread them out at various bottlenecks. If you have discovered an AT-Minefield by driving into it and survived, I think it is usually worth to take the 5/6th chance to drive out an escape unharmed (and - importantly - with a Trailbreak to boot) rather than to turn around, risk exposure to side shots and/or delay. It might even be worth the 2/3rd chance in case of a 2 AT-Minefield to drive out the same way. As defensive assets are always 'too scarce' the AT-Mines might be, where the AT-Gun is not and a full Trailbreak there might be of added benefit. Furthermore AT-Mines tend to be in places that are difficult to defend otherwise: You can't shoot up AT-Mines on the approach but you can shoot up that concealed stack that might carry a Bazooka.

And even if you blow up an AFV on a 2 or 3 AT-Minefield, you do gain the knowledge that with plenty of Mines concentrated in that one hex, there are likely to be very few elsewhere.

von Marwitz
 

R Hooks

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I have a question.. Can you just create trailbreaks in every hex you enter and leave? Or do you need to know a reason to put one there.
 

Eagle4ty

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Since DR/dr that would have no impact on the game cannot be made simply for the purpose of obfuscation there would be no need to place a TB in each hex traversed unless called for by the rules that would normally require a TB. For entry into minefields a player would make a DR/dr upon entry into a minefield location and once a minefield has attacked (successful or not) a minefield counter (known strength or unknown strength) is placed on board and if appropriate a TB counter as well. As stated, some prefer to use a secret DR/dr to further enhance the FOW aspect within the game but this is a house rule not generally accepted by the wider ASL community. Either way, using a secret DR/dr or not, it would is quite evident when one has entered the minefield and the ultimate effect it has upon the unit(s) entering it as well as the ability to place a TB.
 
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