B28 Mines

[Actionjick]

I changed my mind on that: I was editing my previous post while you were responding to it.

Lol! Don't you hate when that happens?

 

[Bill Kohler]

Lol! Don't you hate when that happens?

Yep: my apologies.

 

[Actionjick]

Actually I'm reversing my earlier argument: I think a vehicle using a pre-existing TB can't do a U-turn while on it, but I can't see why if you're the fully tracked vehicle making the TB you can't turn around and drive straight back down the partial TB you entered by and avoid a second minefield attack while doing so.

(BTW, B24.74, says that the partial TB counter is removed if the AFV exits the hex.)

Are you reversing along a trail break? Sorry I couldn't resist it!! My apologies. I fancy myself a humorous kind of jick.

I believe it says the partial TB is removed when the vehicle exits via another hexside and is then replaced with a full TB counter. Rulebook is handy but Captain Bacchus and I are watching one of our favorite Sherlock Holmes episodes, The Second Stain, starring Jeremy Brett. Good stuff!

Really an interesting and entertaining rules discussion. One of the things I truly loved about SL/ASL. Once again please continue with your comments, thoughts and opinions. Very enjoyable.

 

[Actionjick]

Yep: my apologies.

Not a problem!!! LMFAO!!! I did it earlier today up thread to Chas!!

 

[Actionjick]

These are poor examples to your point.
In both cases the Trail Break is removed because the AFV is Immobilized.
They have nothing to do with an AFV creating a Partial TB and stopping in the hex.
You are essentially arguing that there is no such thing as a "Partial TB". If this is the case why would the term be in the ASLRB.
Just sayin'

Were you able to find the Q and A he is referring to? I'm getting very interested in all this. Btw have no idea how to access all the Q and A or I would have checked myself. OMOOT.

 

[Chas]

Do not want to derail this thread by saying this. But worked on Finn Chapter H for about 9 hours so far today. Still working.
Once all the updates done, back to tightening up the Finn HBR.
Hoping some others were able to figure this out. Sounds like someone should submit something to Perry.

 

[Actionjick]

Do not want to derail this thread by saying this. But worked on Finn Chapter H for about 9 hours so far today. Still working.
Once all the updates done, back to tightening up the Finn HBR.
Hoping some others were able to figure this out. Sounds like someone should submit something to Perry.

Good luck on your endeavors!!! Still investigating this, don't want to admit defeat quite yet!

 

[Bill Kohler]

There are two situations: (a) a vehicle using an existing TB in a minefield, and (b) a fully tracked AFV making its own TB in a minefield.

(b) A fully tracked AFV can turn its VCA in a minefield without being attacked by that minefield (B28.41). And the fully tracked AFV is allowed to go back along its partial TB to exit the minefield without attack (B24.74). COWTRA applies, so no minefield attack occurs.

There's still the question of a fully tracked AFV using an existing TB to cross a minefield, but then stopping mid-hex, and exiting the way it came. I can't see any rule preventing it from doing so, nor do I see anything to say that it would be attacked by the minefield if it did so.

(a) A TB is treated as a one-lane bridge (B13.4212, B6.431). But what about a truck in open ground using a TB to cross a minefield. If it gets to the middle of the hex, it can certainly change its VCA because it's in open ground. But would it be attacked if does so? Again, I think not: no rule says that it would be. (So I think the "no turning around" aspect of a one-way bridge thing is not applicable to TBs in minefields, but to TBs in Woods; although the one-way only aspect of the TB would apply in minefields.)

An alternative argument would be that once the truck changes its VCA off the TB hexside, it has left the TB. And if it does that, then no matter what it does from there on out, it'll be attacked by the minefield when it tries to leave the hex. (But I don't see any rules justification for this latter statement: it feels like it's just making rules up on the fly.)

--------------

I'm wording a Q&A to send to MMP...

 

[Actionjick]

There are two situations: (a) a vehicle using an existing TB in a minefield, and (b) a fully tracked AFV making its own TB in a minefield.

(b) A fully tracked AFV can turn its VCA in a minefield without being attacked by that minefield (B28.41). And the fully tracked AFV is allowed to go back along its partial TB to exit the minefield without attack (B24.74). COWTRA applies, so no minefield attack occurs.

There's still the question of a fully tracked AFV using an existing TB to cross a minefield, but then stopping mid-hex, and exiting the way it came. I can't see any rule preventing it from doing so, nor do I see anything to say that it would be attacked by the minefield if it did so.

(a) A TB is treated as a one-lane bridge (B13.4212, B6.431). But what about a truck in open ground using a TB to cross a minefield. If it gets to the middle of the hex, it can certainly change its VCA because it's in open ground. But would it be attacked if does so? Again, I think not: no rule says that it would be. (So I think the "no turning around" aspect of a one-way bridge thing is not applicable to TBs in minefields, but to TBs in Woods; although the one-way only aspect of the TB would apply in minefields.)

An alternative argument would be that once the truck changes its VCA off the TB hexside, it has left the TB. And if it does that, then no matter what it does from there on out, it'll be attacked by the minefield when it tries to leave the hex. (But I don't see any rules justification for this latter statement: it feels like it's just making rules up on the fly.)

Very nice. Captain Bacchus and I now watching Cutthroat Kitchen so I am not sure if I will get back to the rules tonight. I would like to see the Q and A referenced up thread about reversing out of a partial TB.I have questions and thoughts.

 

[Juan SantaX]

These are poor examples to your point.
In both cases the Trail Break is removed because the AFV is Immobilized.
They have nothing to do with an AFV creating a Partial TB and stopping in the hex.
You are essentially arguing that there is no such thing as a "Partial TB". If this is the case why would the term be in the ASLRB.
Just sayin'

I noticed that in my last sentence.

Maybe you need partial trailbreaks to know which hexides are covered when the trailbreak is fully operative.

But really, I dont know, it was only my two pences

 

[Bill Kohler]

The Q&A I've drafted to send to MMP:

---------------

TBs in Minefields

Background Rules Summary: TBs are defined in the rules relative to Woods hexes (B13.421). Units using such TBs are restricted by the "one-way direction rules" of One-Lane bridges (B6.431), and presumably this includes the B6.431 restrictions on permissible vehicle VCA changes while on a Woods TB. B13.421 says if multiple (non-partial) TBs exist within a hex, a unit can't enter by one TB and exit by another TB. The concept of TBs, however, is also used for minefields (B24.74). B28.42 says minefield attacks on vehicles happen only on entry and exit of that minefield hex: VCA changes do not trigger minefield attacks.

For each situation below, the question is: "Does the vehicle face a possible minefield attack as it leaves the hex?"

(a) A fully tracked AFV drives into an open ground minefield hex creating a partial TB as it does so. It survives the "entering a minefield" risk (B28.42), stops, re-starts in reverse, and backs out of the minefield along its TB.

(b) Same situation as (a) only, instead of stopping and reversing, the AFV remains non-stopped, changes its VCA, and drives (in forward) out of the hex along its own partial TB.

(c) A single (non-partial) TB counter exists across an open ground minefield hex. A fully tracked AFV drives along this TB into the hex, remains non-stopped, changes its VCA, and drives (in forward) back out of the hex through the same hexside that it entered by.

(d) Two non-partial TB counters exist across an open ground minefield hex. A fully tracked AFV drives along one TB into the hex, changes its VCA, and drives (in forward) out of the hex through a hexside covered by the other TB marker.

(e) A Truck does exactly the same as in (c).

(f) A Truck does exactly the same as in (d).

-------------------

Does this look like it covers all of the bases? I presume the answers are no, no, no, yes, no, yes.

-------------------

I tweaked the wording a little and sent the question to MMP.

 

[Chas]

Is this relevant?
For a and b is the Partial TB then removed when it exits the hex.

 

[Bill Kohler]

Is this relevant?
For a and b is the Partial TB then removed when it exits the hex.

That's already directly answered in the rules: the partial TB is removed--B24.74.

 

[Bill Kohler]

For each situation below, does the vehicle face a possible minefield attack as it leaves the hex?

(a) A fully tracked AFV drives into an open ground minefield hex creating a partial TB as it does so. It survives the "entering a minefield" risk (B28.42), stops, re-starts in reverse, and backs out of the minefield along its partial TB.
--No.

(b) Same situation as (a) only, instead of stopping and reversing, the AFV remains non-stopped, changes its VCA 180 degrees, and drives forward out of the hex back along its own partial TB.
--No.

(c) A TB counter exists across an open ground minefield hex. A fully tracked AFV drives along this TB into the hex, remains non-stopped, changes its VCA 180 degrees, and drives back out of the hex through the same hexside that it entered by.
--No.

(d) Two TB counters co-exist in an open ground minefield hex. A fully tracked AFV drives along one TB into the hex, changes its VCA, and drives forward out of the hex through a hexside covered by the other TB marker.
--Yes.

(e) Would the answers to (c) or (d) change if the vehicle were a plain truck.
--No.

....Perry
MMP