Armored Trains

von Marwitz

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Is this a question of rivalry between Heer and Waffen SS?
No.

I reject Nazi ideology, thus I do not share the fascination that some people have for the Waffen-SS. Nazi ideology was more deeply rooted in the SS than in the Heer. Of course, there were many Nazis in the Heer. At the same time, not all members of the Waffen-SS were hardened Nazis nor was assignment to the Waffen-SS always voluntary. Altogether, the ideology permeated through the entire society, but not the entire society embraced it.
To better picture it, you might compare it with Trumpism (No, I am NOT saying that Trumpism is Nazism.):
70 million Americans voted for him, so his views permeate society. Not all Trumpists would embrace the storming of the Capitol, many might even abhor it. More Trumpists are in favor of 'the wall' on the border to Mexico than Democrats.
I hope, you get my meaning with regard to the Waffen-SS/Heer.

But what I meant with regard of not liking the solution was aimed at the coloring:

My personal preference in ASL is the non-multicolor vehicular counter art. Broken Ground, BFP, and others do a great job, but I just like the 'original' ASL artwork better and prefer it for its uniformity. For that reason, I never saw the need for black SS counters: It documents some fascination for the SS (not saying fascination for the ideology) which I do not share. Notably, though, there are no 'red' Guards, 'olive drab' Marines - only 'black' SS. Second, the black SS 'violate' my preference for uniformity in the counter art for a given nationality. I don't want to have MPs blue here and black there. I want one uniform system. Lastly, I think white on black coloring does not work well in itself. I prefer reading books black on white and not white on black. Same with counters.

von Marwitz
 

Whiskers1123

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No.

I reject Nazi ideology, thus I do not share the fascination that some people have for the Waffen-SS. Nazi ideology was more deeply rooted in the SS than in the Heer. Of course, there were many Nazis in the Heer. At the same time, not all members of the Waffen-SS were hardened Nazis nor was assignment to the Waffen-SS always voluntary. Altogether, the ideology permeated through the entire society, but not the entire society embraced it.
To better picture it, you might compare it with Trumpism (No, I am NOT saying that Trumpism is Nazism.):
70 million Americans voted for him, so his views permeate society. Not all Trumpists would embrace the storming of the Capitol, many might even abhor it. More Trumpists are in favor of 'the wall' on the border to Mexico than Democrats.
I hope, you get my meaning with regard to the Waffen-SS/Heer.

But what I meant with regard of not liking the solution was aimed at the coloring:

My personal preference in ASL is the non-multicolor vehicular counter art. Broken Ground, BFP, and others do a great job, but I just like the 'original' ASL artwork better and prefer it for its uniformity. For that reason, I never saw the need for black SS counters: It documents some fascination for the SS (not saying fascination for the ideology) which I do not share. Notably, though, there are no 'red' Guards, 'olive drab' Marines - only 'black' SS. Second, the black SS 'violate' my preference for uniformity in the counter art for a given nationality. I don't want to have MPs blue here and black there. I want one uniform system. Lastly, I think white on black coloring does not work well in itself. I prefer reading books black on white and not white on black. Same with counters.

von Marwitz
I disagree. There are red Guards, olive drab marines and even white Finns. CH put them out. The Red Army should be Red. Why would you make them brown? The Marines should be olive drab. Why would you make them lite green? The SS should be black. They had black uniforms. And the Finns should be white. Just my thoughts!
 

von Marwitz

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I disagree. There are red Guards, olive drab marines and even white Finns. CH put them out. The Red Army should be Red. Why would you make them brown? The Marines should be olive drab. Why would you make them lite green? The SS should be black. They had black uniforms. And the Finns should be white. Just my thoughts!
I am aware that you produced red Guards, olive drab Marines and all kinds of very colorful counters with CH. I was not referring to TPPs but to the original.

TPP or original, this does not change my personal preference for one uniform apparel per nationality regardless of any multitude of historic uniform colors (which were not even uniform within the SS and other formations...). One of the reasons for this is that the result appears ramshackle to my taste: I don't like 'African' colored tanks next to 'olive' ones mixed up with 'greys' and 'camo' patterns on ground snow. I find that one kit that omits this extra coloring fits all theaters and environmental conditions while the resulting mixture of 'colors' and 'patterns' fits none. Even less I see any need for an attempt to collect a full kit each of all sorts of 'patterns' that actually fit the time frame and environmental conditions. Nor do I like 'black' counters mixed with 'blue' ones for the same nationality.

So to conclude: For me, less is more. Clarity and uniformity of the system beats a flurry of colors.
But tastes, of course, vary.

von Marwitz
 

csiemers

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Seems like with so few countries actually using armored trains I'd like to see them in their respective nationality colors.
 

footsteps

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Seems like with so few countries actually using armored trains I'd like to see them in their respective nationality colors.
Without googling, I'm thinking French(?), Dutch, German, Polish, Soviet. Maybe Hungarian & Romanian.
 

sswann

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Wow!
Lots of opinions here.
I only have counters designed for Germany, Russia, Poland, Japan, Slovak and a few generic.
While other countries had them, I have only found ASL Scenario combat actions for these 6 types.
German, Polish & Russian Self-propelled RR Scout Cars (RRSC) are included.
Instead of printing a couple of hundred counters, I want to limit it to a reasonable number with at least 1 scenario for each type.

One thing that I am aiming for is to keep the rules as close to the normal ASL Vehicle/Gun rules as possible.
It cuts down the learning curve by not having a ton of new rules.
So AF/Guns/MGs rules are basically the same using all the same TH/TK modifiers.
They are larger in size (-3 to hit) and without all the different smoke capabilities.
PP for transporting Passenger/Riders is handled the same as standard vehicles.
Movement is the major difference since they MUST follow the RR Tracks.

Maybe I should first find a producer and let them decide the counters?

Steve
 

von Marwitz

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Maybe I should first find a producer and let them decide the counters?

Steve
It seems that with 'footsteps' your have just found a volunteer to produce your counters.

I think, however, that the basic counter design should rather rest with the designer rather than the producer.

Whatever form and color the counters will eventually take, I believe the 'through approach' is the most prudent:

The counters should be designed in a way that they can reflect all possibilities that one wants to conceivably picture with the RR car idea. In other words, you need a very solid structure that allows for being fleshed out later.

I.e. the necessity must be prevented to overthrow the original structure of the 'system' of the RR car counters in case the idea is later expanded. If you only need generic counters and, say, German nationality RR cars now, the structure and system must be able to allow for possible expansion.

Just like you have in ASL one structure/'system' for AFV values/properties which has been designed so soundly that it was able to depict/reflect scores of new vehicles of a multitude of nationalities since its introduction in 1985.

Every effort now put into a similary sound system for RR cars (which is a new concept for ASL) will pay great dividends later.

von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

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How many cars to a counter? A 40m long RR car carrying a single tank would be quite rare I would think.
This is, indeed, a very good question, which I had asked myself, too.

The obvious way to handle this would be to allow stacking of RR cars in a hex, which I would probably limit to 2 cars in an attempt to compromise between reality and playability. This approach might not be without difficulties, especially when two turreted RR cars in a single hex would be involved - keeping the CA of the turrets correctly aligned while stacked might be tricky.

Another approach would be to depict (at least for some types) two RR cars on a single counter for example. This might cause maybe more difficulties, than the first one.

Lastly, one could just settle on 'one RR car' per counter and per hex, acknowledging some level of abstraction despite a RR car being shorter than 40 meters. This causes no 'technical' problems with regard to the rules at all. For that reason, it is probably the most sensible thing to do.
After all, you could park a number of Tigers in a row in a 40m hex as well, which never happens because the overstacking penalties incurred by the system.

von Marwitz
 
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Tom Morin

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I concur with von Marwitz. You have to use abstraction by keeping one RC per hex. For example, one Russian Armored train that was in Stalingrad was three cars, two cars each car had what were essentially two T-34 turrets and four side facing BMG (2 Port, 2 Starboard). The other car had three triple MMG AA mounts. Can you imagine trying to keep track of the various TCA if you had 2 RC per hex?

Tom
 

sswann

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As von Marwitz says
"Lastly, one could just settle on 'one RR car' per counter and per hex, acknowledging some level of abstraction despite a RR car being shorter than 40 meters. This causes no 'technical' problems with regard to the rules problems at all. For that reason, it is probably the most sensible thing to do.
After all, you could park a number of Tigers in a row in a 40m hex as well, which never happens because the overstacking penalties incurred by the system."

This is the rules as presently written. The idea that a 25 foot AFV (or even the small L3 tankette) can cause a LOS hindrance in a 120 foot wide hex is a game abstraction to begin with.
I see no difference here, one RR Car per hex would be an abstraction on the same order (and easier to visualize) and the train would be treated as vehicles in Convoy except that the MP would all be based on the Locomotive.

Another thought for all of you. Since RR Tracks are normally kept fairly level when build, how would using the Level 0 Open Ground Green (map color) for a base counter color. The actual car drawings could be either wood brown or steel grey with the white Open-top conventions that we are already used to? Kinda like the Glider being blue on 1 side (airborne) and Green of the (Earth-bound) side.
 

sswann

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We couuld place a national symbol in the upper right corner since there will not have any MP [EXC: Locomotive]
 
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