Armies of Oblivion

GeorgeBates

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J93, “Bloody Nose” is now scenario 222.

This scenario rocks. Very happy to see that it now has a home in a core module. While it had a reputation as pro-Axis, people may be shocked at the changes for the Soviets:
  • Adds one 5-2-7 squad
  • Adds two 2-3-7 HS
  • SSR 4 requiring non-crew Russian MMC to set up in buildings has been deleted
There are no changes to the Axis force.

Normally I wouldn’t pay much attention to scenario changes made after publication. I have played J93 to a draw twice with Soviet balance to upgrade the 7-0 leader. Looking at these updates, I'm beginning to think I scored two moral victories.

There's probably a story here. Eager to hear it if anyone will talk!
 

pwashington

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Sorry if I missed it someplace - any specific reason for the additional Russian SMC and partisan counters on sheet 6? The FG AT gun counters are replacements and marked as such.
 

Paul M. Weir

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Bring up the numbers?

There were only 14 P. HS (and 26 Sq) in BV v3, 5 P. HS brings it to 19.
For P. SMC there were only 1 x 10-3, 1 x 10-2, 2 x 9-2, 2 x 9-1, 3 x 8-1, 3 x 8-0, 2 x 7-0 and 1 x 1+6 P. Leaders in BV. AoO v2 added 1 each 8-0, 7-0 and 6+1 to bring their respective totals to 4, 3 and 2. It also added a 10-0 and a 9-0 P. Commissar which were not in BV.

OK. Found them. I knew I saw those extras somewhere! They were in the original "Partisan!" module.

The 2 Soviet Radios are corrections for BV v2.
 

pybarrondo

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One little bonus in the reprint: Boards 49 and 50 were redone to correct some minor errors in the artwork (A tiny segment of paved road is now dirt, and some stream end hexes are now drawn correctly).
 
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bprobst

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I don't think changing terrain on an existing board can really be classed as a "bonus". On the old board 49, hexes B5 and F6 were dirt roads; now they're paved roads. How much difference will this make? Hardly any, one presumes, which then begs the question why the terrain was changed at all. In some scenarios it's potentially the difference between an emplaced gun or an unemplaced gun, or a (possibly) important entrenchment Location. I don't understand the reason for this change at all. (Hex Y2 has also changed, in that the Y1/Y2 and Y2/Z2 hexsides were paved and now are dirt. I'm having trouble thinking of how that would change the game in any way, but that even more begs the question of why was it done?)

The board 50 changes to the stream ends are more difficult to quantify. Perhaps it signifies some imminent errata for B20.1 or A2.76 (which would not be a bad thing). Otherwise it seems pretty pointless.

I thought that one of the benefits of the ASLSK-style maps was that it allowed for consistency in map presentation; if the maps are arbitrarily changed every time they're reprinted, we're back to the bad old days of having to ask our opponents "which maps should we use?". Of course, since MMP didn't see fit to tell anyone that they were doing this, maybe it's been going on for years, and every time we pull the boards for a scenario it's a crap shoot.
 

pybarrondo

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I don't think changing terrain on an existing board can really be classed as a "bonus". On the old board 49, hexes B5 and F6 were dirt roads; now they're paved roads. How much difference will this make? Hardly any, one presumes, which then begs the question why the terrain was changed at all. In some scenarios it's potentially the difference between an emplaced gun or an unemplaced gun, or a (possibly) important entrenchment Location. I don't understand the reason for this change at all. (Hex Y2 has also changed, in that the Y1/Y2 and Y2/Z2 hexsides were paved and now are dirt. I'm having trouble thinking of how that would change the game in any way, but that even more begs the question of why was it done?)

The board 50 changes to the stream ends are more difficult to quantify. Perhaps it signifies some imminent errata for B20.1 or A2.76 (which would not be a bad thing). Otherwise it seems pretty pointless.

I thought that one of the benefits of the ASLSK-style maps was that it allowed for consistency in map presentation; if the maps are arbitrarily changed every time they're reprinted, we're back to the bad old days of having to ask our opponents "which maps should we use?". Of course, since MMP didn't see fit to tell anyone that they were doing this, maybe it's been going on for years, and every time we pull the boards for a scenario it's a crap shoot.
Actually the stream fix is to CONFORM to the existing rule, so I wouldn't expect any rules errata there. I guess you can get yourself worked up about the road hexes if you like, but I don't see where any formerly dirt road hex has become paved. Y1 and Z2 have gone from paved to dirt. B5 and F6, by virtue of being partially paved, were already considered paved roads. They're just more clearly paved now.
 
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Uncle_Duke

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J93, “Bloody Nose” is now scenario 222.
  • SSR 4 requiring non-crew Russian MMC to set up in buildings has been deleted
Not deleted, just moved. Russian setup instructions read "Elements of 592nd Rifle Regiment, 203rd Rifle Division... set up north of the railroad; non-crew MMC must set up in buildings"
 

hongkongwargamer

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Actually the stream fix is to CONFORM to the existing rule, so I wouldn't expect any rules errata there. I guess you can get yourself worked up about the road hexes if you like, but I don't see where any formerly dirt road hex has become paved. Y1 and Z2 have gone from paved to dirt. B5 and F6, by virtue of being partially paved, were already considered paved roads. They're just more clearly paved now.
3C169972-7555-4621-8D4E-ED461748F4A4.png
 

Uncle_Duke

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Yup, Geoff doesn't miss much. He was definately one of the fastest learners I've come across in many years-got my posterior impacted by his LPCs (leather personnel carriers) more than once.
Thanks Tom-- that means a lot coming from a guy who's been playing this game longer than I've been alive!
 

bprobst

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Actually the stream fix is to CONFORM to the existing rule
I guess your rules say something different to mine, but that seems to happen a lot these days. Either way the stream change is trivial; the artwork means the same thing old or new regardless of what rules you're reading.

I guess you can get yourself worked up about the road hexes if you like, but I don't see where any formerly dirt road hex has become paved.
You're NOT getting worked up about a board that has different terrain depictions depending on when it was printed? Really? This is not "different artwork", "the LOS used to be blocked but now it's clear" or anything like that; this is "used to be terrain X, with rules A and B applicable; now it's terrain Y, with rules C and D applicable". The peasants should be gathering outside MMP HQ with pitchforks and torches, asking "what the fuck is going on?". We are owed, at the very least, an explanation (bonus marks if it's a satisfactory explanation) -- but I'm not holding my breath.

Y1 and Z2 have gone from paved to dirt. B5 and F6, by virtue of being partially paved, were already considered paved roads. They're just more clearly paved now.
49Y1 and 49Z2 were never paved, so far as I know. I have two older copies of that board in ASLSK format and both are identical (and match the original mounted board version, too). Those hexes on the new board 49 have not changed, except for the Y1/Y2 and Y2/Z2 hexsides which have changed from paved to dirt, as mentioned above (and which has no game effect that I can think of, as I also mentioned above, so it's a graphical oddity of no real consequence). However, if you have a copy of board 49 where Y1 and Z2 are paved, then that means there's a third version out there. Yay.

The actual, consequential change on board 49 are the hexes that changed from dirt to paved, as I described above. Again, if your copy of the board doesn't show those changes, then you have a version that is different to all of mine, old or new. And if that's the case, it just raises even bigger questions, which I'm sure that MMP will not bother to address.
 

Eagle4ty

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I guess your rules say something different to mine, but that seems to happen a lot these days. Either way the stream change is trivial; the artwork means the same thing old or new regardless of what rules you're reading.



You're NOT getting worked up about a board that has different terrain depictions depending on when it was printed? Really? This is not "different artwork", "the LOS used to be blocked but now it's clear" or anything like that; this is "used to be terrain X, with rules A and B applicable; now it's terrain Y, with rules C and D applicable". The peasants should be gathering outside MMP HQ with pitchforks and torches, asking "what the fuck is going on?". We are owed, at the very least, an explanation (bonus marks if it's a satisfactory explanation) -- but I'm not holding my breath.



49Y1 and 49Z2 were never paved, so far as I know. I have two older copies of that board in ASLSK format and both are identical (and match the original mounted board version, too). Those hexes on the new board 49 have not changed, except for the Y1/Y2 and Y2/Z2 hexsides which have changed from paved to dirt, as mentioned above (and which has no game effect that I can think of, as I also mentioned above, so it's a graphical oddity of no real consequence). However, if you have a copy of board 49 where Y1 and Z2 are paved, then that means there's a third version out there. Yay.

The actual, consequential change on board 49 are the hexes that changed from dirt to paved, as I described above. Again, if your copy of the board doesn't show those changes, then you have a version that is different to all of mine, old or new. And if that's the case, it just raises even bigger questions, which I'm sure that MMP will not bother to address.
In addition to changing the ability to emplace a gun in these hexes is the less often possibility of bog should "Mud" be in effect and of course the additional (or lack thereof) of an additional MP/MF expenditure. I have not seen the new boards, but if these changes have been made it is much more than a simple cosmetic change for aesthetic purposes.
 

klasmalmstrom

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On my old mounted Board 49 both Y1 and Z2 are paved road, since there is a small part of the road in those hexes that are paved.

B3.1:
"...A road hex containing both paved and dirt roads is considered a paved road hex, although entry of the hex is based on the type of hexside entered (e.g., 12M4 is a paved road hex but entry of it through the M4-L3 hexside is per a dirt road hexside)...."
 

von Marwitz

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On my old mounted Board 49 both Y1 and Z2 are paved road, since there is a small part of the road in those hexes that are paved.
Hey, if anyone wants to buy a shrinkwrapped 1st edition of Armies of Oblivion with a mounted bd 49 (which I *think* was included in there), I am offering it for the bargain price of 10,000 USD!

von Marwitz
 

jrv

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I guess your rules say something different to mine, but that seems to happen a lot these days. Either way the stream change is trivial; the artwork means the same thing old or new regardless of what rules you're reading.
Per B20.1, the stream artwork has to extend "through two hexsides." Board 47 (not 49, which does not have a stream on it) and board 50 had end-of-stream hexes (e.g. 47F8, 50AA10) that did not extend through a second hexside. By B20.1 these were *not* stream hexes despite being extensively covered in stream artwork. Most players were not aware of the technicality of B20.1, and I think even those that were played the hexes as was obviously intended. The "issue" was just a technical curiosity but I'm glad MMP has decided to correct this very minor error in the maps.

JR
 

TopT

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Per B20.1, the stream artwork has to extend "through two hexsides." Board 47 (not 49, which does not have a stream on it) and board 50 had end-of-stream hexes (e.g. 47F8, 50AA10) that did not extend through a second hexside. By B20.1 these were *not* stream hexes despite being extensively covered in stream artwork. Most players were not aware of the technicality of B20.1, and I think even those that were played the hexes as was obviously intended. The "issue" was just a technical curiosity but I'm glad MMP has decided to correct this very minor error in the maps.

JR
and peace reigns in the valley once again....
 

bprobst

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Per B20.1, the stream artwork has to extend "through two hexsides." Board 47 (not 49, which does not have a stream on it) and board 50 had end-of-stream hexes (e.g. 47F8, 50AA10) that did not extend through a second hexside. By B20.1 these were *not* stream hexes despite being extensively covered in stream artwork. Most players were not aware of the technicality of B20.1, and I think even those that were played the hexes as was obviously intended. The "issue" was just a technical curiosity but I'm glad MMP has decided to correct this very minor error in the maps.
I'm well aware of what the rules state; for a long time I was pretty sure I was the only person who knew it, since most everyone else would scream to the rooftops "they're stream hexes!" when, by the rules, they weren't.

Not sure what that has to do with the redrawn board 50, because old or new, that stream artwork doesn't extend through a second hexside. On the redrawn board, the stream tendrils touch the board edge, with no suggestion of "extending through". The artwork has changed, but it hasn't made any difference to the way the hex is to be interpreted. That won't happen until errata updates either or both of A2.76/B20.1 to clarify exactly how these board-edge hexes are to be treated. (A2.76 only discusses what happens when two board edges are aligned together and I'm pretty sure that the B20.1 wording was a nonsensical oversight -- see below.)

You know what absolutely won't improve player education on this or other related issues? Silently redrawing some board artwork without telling anyone about it. Does MMP believe that this action will mystically redraw all of the boards that have already made their way into player's hands? I hope not!

B3.1:
"...A road hex containing both paved and dirt roads is considered a paved road hex, although entry of the hex is based on the type of hexside entered (e.g., 12M4 is a paved road hex but entry of it through the M4-L3 hexside is per a dirt road hexside)...."
I think you would find that exactly 0% of all the (other) ASL players in the world would follow that definition. It's a nonsensical rule, in exactly the same way that the B20.1 definition of stream hexes is nonsensical: the rule says one thing while the artwork says something different. In any case, as above, silently redrawing artwork and expecting that will solve issues with the rules is a ridiculous approach. Does MMP think they're being "clever" by doing this? if so, they should be ashamed.
 
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