A25.33 American OBA Draw Pile for Scarce Ammunition

Actionjick

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I jokingly say that Schwerpunkt is German for "more of the same" precisely because they all seem to become more and more alike to me. The nationalities change, the boards change but the VC vary between a couple of different types and generally, it's 10 - 15 squads and 3 - 5 AFV's vs. 8 - 12 squads, and a couple of tanks/guns. The more people try to make "tournament scenarios" the more they collapse into the same thing. JMO, YMMV. -- jim
Thanks Jim. Strange since most players don't attend tournaments. Is it because the designers do attend tournaments?
 

von Marwitz

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Thanks Jim. Strange since most players don't attend tournaments. Is it because the designers do attend tournaments?
Maybe one should more precisely say 'tournament sized' scenarios rather than 'tournament scnenarios'.

This means that you can usually play them within an afternoon or an evening meeting roughly the requirements of tournament timetables. But as outlined before, aside from tournaments many people have less ASL time than they would like - and they also wish to be able to finish a scenario in the same time frame.

That IMHO explains the popularity of 'tournament sized' scenarios.

I jokingly say that Schwerpunkt is German for "more of the same" precisely because they all seem to become more and more alike to me. The nationalities change, the boards change but the VC vary between a couple of different types and generally, it's 10 - 15 squads and 3 - 5 AFV's vs. 8 - 12 squads, and a couple of tanks/guns. The more people try to make "tournament scenarios" the more they collapse into the same thing. JMO, YMMV. -- jim
I agree with your observations with regard to the numbers and types of units. This is what typically fits into a 'tournament sized' scenario. I would not agree, though, in seeing these scenarios becoming ever more alike. So many ASL stuff around that you can create a plethora of different situations and scenarios with the given number of counters. I do agree, though, that the 'tournament sized' scenario type seems to become ever more numerous. But at least it seems to me that in general this is a case of this type of design meeting the most popular demand.

Luckily, altogether there is currrently enough stuff around of any type, be it a 4-Turn quickie or a lengthy campaign game.

von Marwitz
 

Actionjick

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Maybe one should more precisely say 'tournament sized' scenarios rather than 'tournament scnenarios'.

This means that you can usually play them within an afternoon or an evening meeting roughly the requirements of tournament timetables. But as outlined before, aside from tournaments many people have less ASL time than they would like - and they also wish to be able to finish a scenario in the same time frame.

That IMHO explains the popularity of 'tournament sized' scenarios.



I agree with your observations with regard to the numbers and types of units. This is what typically fits into a 'tournament sized' scenario. I would not agree, though, in seeing these scenarios becoming ever more alike. So many ASL stuff around that you can create a plethora of different situations and scenarios with the given number of counters. I do agree, though, that the 'tournament sized' scenario type seems to become ever more numerous. But at least it seems to me that in general this is a case of this type of design meeting the most popular demand.

Luckily, altogether there is currrently enough stuff around of any type, be it a 4-Turn quickie or a lengthy campaign game.

von Marwitz
Just my viewpoint but if I had limited playing time I would prefer a scenario that had lots of chrome and/or challenging tactical problems.

If you only have one item for a meal why pick oatmeal when you can have a spicy chicken burrito?

Nothing against oatmeal btw.
 

Robin Reeve

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Chrome often means abundant SSRs.
I shy away from scenarios with heavy SSR content - especially that some designers tend to make things overly complicated, rather than use design for effect abstractions.
As a too heavy SSR, I think of the ToT radioguided "goliath", which took a couple of pages of smallprint rules.
 

Actionjick

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Chrome often means abundant SSRs.
I shy away from scenarios with heavy SSR content - especially that some designers tend to make things overly complicated, rather than use design for effect abstractions.
As a too heavy SSR, I think of the ToT radioguided "goliath", which took a couple of pages of smallprint rules.
Yes that certainly seems excessive to me.
 

Sparafucil3

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So many ASL stuff around that you can create a plethora of different situations and scenarios with the given number of counters
So I will quote a little US army doctrine here recognizing that this isn't universal (docs dated 2019).

There four types of offensive operations: movement to contact, attack, exploitation, and pursuit. Attack can be broken down into a couple of different varieties, such as deliberate and hasty, as well as flavors like ambush, counterattack, demonstration, feint, raid, and spoiling attack. Most of these are represented in ASL in some fashion although I think a counterattack, demonstration, feint, and spoiling attack would be flavor in the description and aftermath.

Generally, there are three types of defensive operations: area defense focuses on terrain, mobile defense focuses on the movement of enemy forces, and retrograde focuses on the movement of friendly forces. At least at the below battalion/company level, ASL does an fair job of representing these.

If you look around, I am sure you can find other doctrines from other militaries which would allow you to quickly map out the fact there aren't really that many types of engagements to model. So, you can mix any combination of counters, maps, and scenarios, but at the base level, your scenario mostly likely breaks down to one of these types of engagements. Recognition of this is why militaries the world over, train and re-train on training grounds the world over. Once you have planned and executed a deliberate attack against a hasty defense, you know what needs to be done. If, as in ASL, you have done it over and over, it does begin to become "more of the same". Our real-world counter-parts that ACTUALLY lead flesh and blood soldiers into combat would kill to have the commensurate real-life experience we have gained on the cardboard battlefield.

In the main, I agree there are a gadjillion different combinations of boards. overlays, and counters we could cobble together, but the reality is, we are just playing the same basic scenarios over and over. Given the collective ASL body has begun to recognize what A needs to beat B and still remain challenging, it doesn't surprise me they all start to look like one another. JMO, YMMV. -- jim
 

BattleSchool

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In the main, I agree there are a gadjillion different combinations of boards. overlays, and counters we could cobble together, but the reality is, we are just playing the same basic scenarios over and over. Given the collective ASL body has begun to recognize what A needs to beat B and still remain challenging, it doesn't surprise me they all start to look like one another. JMO, YMMV. -- jim
And yet we can't help but sample the latest recipes.

Could it be that there's more than one way to cook a cat, or if you prefer a chicken, that keeps us coming back for more?

The basic ingredient may be the same, but there's a world of difference between beer-can chicken and coq au vin. YTBMV -chris
 

Perry

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True, but fewer players today are willing to risk playing a scenario where OBA fails to have any (or too much) impact on the game. In our younger days "balance" was less of a concern. The dearth of scenarios at the time led many of us to play every "official" scenario at least once, regardless of whether a game could become unhinged by drawing two red chits early on.

Given the huge number of scenarios available for play now, many players opt to ignore those deemed too "dicey" in order to play other offerings. Scenarios featuring one key piece, FT AFV, etc., also fall into this category. Still other players pass on scenarios with too much chrome or bookkeeping. Finally, an historically accurate scenario isn't necessarily that interesting to play.
”Dicey” scenarios (into which category most OBA-dependent scenarios can be included) are just as likely to be balanced as others, but maybe over several playings.

I think that once upon a time players were much more likely to play a scenario several times, due no doubt to the ”dearth of scenarios” available.

I think the rise of tournament play (I blame Fish)—both in-person and now online—has emphasized the desire for less direly scenarios. This is complicated by the fact that tournaments favor shorter (and therefore inherently dicey) scenarios where the failure of “one key piece” will be the catastrophe that it might not necessarily be in a longer scenario.

Regardless, I look forward to the Spilky article analyzing the Pleva OBA variant in the forthcoming Journal (publication of which I am really looking forward to).

PS
In a medium-to-largish scenario at Winter Offensive, a crucial linchpin of Danny Stanhagen’s defense was crushed by an early CH and yahtzee. His reaction was classic, in the best sense of the word: “If my defense can’t withstand one CH, it must not have been very good. Let’s find out.”
 

Sparafucil3

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Regardless, I look forward to the Spilky article analyzing the Pleva OBA variant in the forthcoming Journal (publication of which I am really looking forward to).
Not that it wouldn't be already, but this will make it a must buy for me. I will likely read this article before even looking at the scenarios. :) -- jim
 

Actionjick

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”Dicey” scenarios (into which category most OBA-dependent scenarios can be included) are just as likely to be balanced as others, but maybe over several playings.

I think that once upon a time players were much more likely to play a scenario several times, due no doubt to the ”dearth of scenarios” available.

I think the rise of tournament play (I blame Fish)—both in-person and now online—has emphasized the desire for less direly scenarios. This is complicated by the fact that tournaments favor shorter (and therefore inherently dicey) scenarios where the failure of “one key piece” will be the catastrophe that it might not necessarily be in a longer scenario.

Regardless, I look forward to the Spilky article analyzing the Pleva OBA variant in the forthcoming Journal (publication of which I am really looking forward to).

PS
In a medium-to-largish scenario at Winter Offensive, a crucial linchpin of Danny Stanhagen’s defense was crushed by an early CH and yahtzee. His reaction was classic, in the best sense of the word: “If my defense can’t withstand one CH, it must not have been very good. Let’s find out.”
Very nice attitude on Danny's part, very admirable. ??

From time to time Captain Bacchus and I have pondered the effects of the mini tournament format on the game. IIRC McGrath thought it watered down the weekend tournament, now known as the Grofaz. Unforeseen consequences perhaps from what seemed to be a good solution to a situation at the time.
 

von Marwitz

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So I will quote a little US army doctrine here recognizing that this isn't universal (docs dated 2019).

There four types of offensive operations: movement to contact, attack, exploitation, and pursuit. Attack can be broken down into a couple of different varieties, such as deliberate and hasty, as well as flavors like ambush, counterattack, demonstration, feint, raid, and spoiling attack. Most of these are represented in ASL in some fashion although I think a counterattack, demonstration, feint, and spoiling attack would be flavor in the description and aftermath.

Generally, there are three types of defensive operations: area defense focuses on terrain, mobile defense focuses on the movement of enemy forces, and retrograde focuses on the movement of friendly forces. At least at the below battalion/company level, ASL does an fair job of representing these.

In the main, I agree there are a gadjillion different combinations of boards. overlays, and counters we could cobble together, but the reality is, we are just playing the same basic scenarios over and over. Given the collective ASL body has begun to recognize what A needs to beat B and still remain challenging, it doesn't surprise me they all start to look like one another. JMO, YMMV. -- jim
All right, I think we're talking a bit at cross-purposes. I never challenged that there is only a limited number of operation types. This has been the same before and after the advent of Schwerpunkt. And in this regard we have always been playing the same stuff in ASL.

My point is that if you have that dozen of squads+SW and 3-5 vehicles and guns per side time and again (in the form of the typical 'tournament sized' scenario type, scenarios can be completely different: Let the vehicles be late war heavy tanks on one hand or SPAA on the other. Let the defending 5/8" counters be mobile or stationary. Let the setting be 1940 or 1944. Might be approximately the same number of counters, might be the same types of offensive/defensive operations. But for sure within this 'sameness' that has always been, the variety of scenarios, how they play and feel, is vastly diverse.

Of course, if after having played 1000 scenarios, you begin having the feeling of having 'seen it all', then I can follow that. Probably there is no solution to that because the game system is designed to reflect only a certain scope of combat.

von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

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Just my viewpoint but if I had limited playing time I would prefer a scenario that had lots of chrome and/or challenging tactical problems.

If you only have one item for a meal why pick oatmeal when you can have a spicy chicken burrito?

Nothing against oatmeal btw.
My reasoning was that if you have 4 or 5 hours for play, you might not want to spend one of them grokking the chrome which you might lack thereafter to finish the scenario in the remaining time.

von Marwitz
 
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