Understanding the CH Counters.

[von Marwitz]

well, all I can say is if MMP provided the counters as individual sets then we wouldn't have to go to third party producers for them

I think there is some truth in that.

Of course we know that MMP has to or had to redo many counters from scratch before the reprint of the last few core modules. Which must be a tedious sh**load of work.

I have no good knowledge on prices of having countersheets printed. All I know is that volume matters.
I could *imagine*, though, that for the printing cost it does not matter much if 10 or 12 different counter-sheets are printed as long as the overall number of sheets is of sufficient volume.

We know that it does not make sense for MMP to stockpile products to much that take a long time to sell off. But perhaps if they print the next core module, they could make a test by printing a number of "nationality sheets" of redone core-modules which will probably will not be much extra work and then try to sell these as parts. That way, they will have enough 'volume' when they print and they could test how well their own sheets would sell as 'parts'. If that test is financially successful, they could expand on it, possibly even using this method to generate 'volume' when printing other stuff to lower their production cost.

von Marwitz

 

[Bob Walters]

I think if MMP sold a full counter set they might cannibalize their module market. However, if they sold a reduced counter set (say enough for generic scenarios) it would tide people over until a module reprint and serve as a beta test for the counter and their artwork. Where as I doubt anyone would substitute 3rd party counters for a real module if it is available.

 

[Brad M-V]

MMP may do that yet, they have a counter printer of their own now and are planning to produce a pocket book version of the Chapter H rules with every nationality in it. Once they have the Chapter H pocket book they can easily produce nationality sets of their own if they so choose. As far as multi-coloured counters go, who knows. My guess is that if someone posted a topic surveying who would want to buy colourized MMP counter sets, most would not want them, and their would need to be at least 1000 pre-orders to cover the cost for the new art... per nationality.

 

[Alan Hume]

I think there is some truth in that.

Of course we know that MMP has to or had to redo many counters from scratch before the reprint of the last few core modules. Which must be a tedious sh**load of work.

I have no good knowledge on prices of having countersheets printed. All I know is that volume matters.
I could *imagine*, though, that for the printing cost it does not matter much if 10 or 12 different counter-sheets are printed as long as the overall number of sheets is of sufficient volume.

We know that it does not make sense for MMP to stockpile products to much that take a long time to sell off. But perhaps if they print the next core module, they could make a test by printing a number of "nationality sheets" of redone core-modules which will probably will not be much extra work and then try to sell these as parts. That way, they will have enough 'volume' when they print and they could test how well their own sheets would sell as 'parts'. If that test is financially successful, they could expand on it, possibly even using this method to generate 'volume' when printing other stuff to lower their production cost.

von Marwitz

that's a very good idea actually, be good if they would do something like that but who knows?

 

[witchbottles]

These nationality sets are one step further in copyright infrigement.
If counter sales are good, then the next step would be to release copies of oop modules with maps, counters and scenarios. And MMP would be hurt further.

been there, done that.....

http://www.desperationmorale.com/products/arnhem-the-third-bridge/

There are other examples, A:TB is likely the best one. Perhaps both RT and MMP violated Steve and Eddie's IP rights, after all, GSTK was first. Anyone screaming to remove AbtF for "copyright infringement"?

In any case, I am interested exactly what portion of IP rights you have arbitrarily determined are being infringed upon by anyone making counters for ASL that are not MMP.

KRL, jon H

 

[Pitman]

Don't be ignorant? I'll tell you what, you're very quick with the name calling and insults. It's a specious argument anyway, ASL stopped selling because there is a very limited market for the product and for whatever reason retailers thought that flooding their shelves with any ASL products would lead to new players picking up the game. We plainly know that isn't true because any game day or tournament you guy to is filled with guys in their 50-60s with the occasional player in their 30s and maybe a trickle in their 40s.

You obviously hate Critical Hit and Ray Tapio. But blaming Ray Tapio for the demise of a gaming system because he produces crappy products (in your opinion and the opinion of a few others) is illogical and unfounded. The game is dying because kids my son's age, for example, didn't grow up playing board games, they don't know much about WWII and it's just a hard game to learn. My son is a very smart kid and he's good at ASL. Very good. He doesn't enjoy playing it. It's too slow for him. It's too much like homework. There's no fancy graphics to look at. Blaming Ray Tapio and Critical Hit for that is like blaming Polaroid for photographs printed on paper not being used anymore. It's your way of trying to justify your hatred for him and making it look like it's some kind of "professional" grudge. It's a game.

In any case, I'm done arguing with you about it. Because frankly, I don't really give a crap about Critical Hit nor do I give a crap about your opinion on what a burden to society Ray is. Nobody is going to change your mind. But please don't insult our intelligence by trying to explain your behavior as trying to protect the integrity of a board game.

ASL never stopped selling. But may retailers stopped *stocking* ASL products thanks to CH. The game is not dying at all; sales continue to be high. It inevitably will die, as will the wargaming hobby as we know it in general will, because the whole hobby is based upon the wargaming fad of the 1970s and early 1980s, but that is a totally separate issue. Nobody blamed Critical Hit for that; we have blamed Critical Hit for all the many specific things that Critical Hit has done over the years, things you seem to either ignore or are ignorant of.

I certainly do dislike Critical Hit, because it does bad things. In this, I am hardly alone; I stand with the majority of veteran ASLers, many of whom loathe Critical Hit far more than I do.

 

[Pitman]

One thing I have noticed time and again about the people who claim to be disgusted with CH, Ray or things like SS dice and black counters is that they are not particularly ethical about how they treat other people. They are normally the first to start insulting others in any conversation. If one is to start talking about ethics and conscientiousness then you ought to lead by example. Plenty of good and conscientious people don't mind CH, Ray, SS dice and black counters. Plenty of unscrupulous people actually DO mind!

Blah blah blah. Trying to compare sharp language to what CH has done over the years is ridiculous.

 

[Pitman]

If they were copyright infringements then they would not be allowed. None of these companies are operating in the backstreets of a developing nation. They all operate in the open besides I truly doubt they have any affect on MMP's bottom line. Nobody buys red colored Soviet counters so they do not have to buy Beyond Valor.

It is more complicated than the claim in your first sentence. Many copyright infringements are "allowed" simply because the victim company cannot afford to sue. In this particular case, that of third party counters, the material in question is very much in a borderline area, with legal arguments that can be made (and have been made by various lawyers) over the years. HOB decided, on the advice of their attorney, that the watermark would be sufficient in distinguishing the look and feel of HOB counters from official counters. MMP disagreed but decided not to pursue legal action. Eventually, BFP (once separate from HOB) and CH decided to follow HOB's example. How a court would actually decide it, no one knows.

 

[clubby]

ASL never stopped selling. But may retailers stopped *stocking* ASL products thanks to CH. The game is not dying at all; sales continue to be high. It inevitably will die, as will the wargaming hobby as we know it in general will, because the whole hobby is based upon the wargaming fad of the 1970s and early 1980s, but that is a totally separate issue. Nobody blamed Critical Hit for that; we have blamed Critical Hit for all the many specific things that Critical Hit has done over the years, things you seem to either ignore or are ignorant of.

I certainly do dislike Critical Hit, because it does bad things. In this, I am hardly alone; I stand with the majority of veteran ASLers, many of whom loathe Critical Hit far more than I do.

High is relative. I wouldn't say selling say 500-1000 of a particular game to be a particular high number. Especially when many people are buying multiple copies, I'm sure hoping to capitalize on the OOP sales down the road. Again, you find yourself needing to use the word ignorant. Feel free to pick the most offensive word possible to describe a situation where I may not have all the pertinent facts on the matter. I think case, however, I do know a lot of the back story. I just don't care. Because it's a game.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Nobody cares little corporal now go away.

It is more complicated than the claim in your first sentence. Many copyright infringements are "allowed" simply because the victim company cannot afford to sue. In this particular case, that of third party counters, the material in question is very much in a borderline area, with legal arguments that can be made (and have been made by various lawyers) over the years. HOB decided, on the advice of their attorney, that the watermark would be sufficient in distinguishing the look and feel of HOB counters from official counters. MMP disagreed but decided not to pursue legal action. Eventually, BFP (once separate from HOB) and CH decided to follow HOB's example. How a court would actually decide it, no one knows.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

I find this discourse interesting. (Apart from one individual comically trying hard to not be ignored lol.)

I for one has come to a better understanding of the different viewpoints.

On one hand, I think folks are free to use their hard earned money. On the other hand, we all, including said companies will all get what we deserve.

For newer folks in the hobby - if it suits your style of play - there's a wonderful software call VASL (vasl.info) that gives you the (almost) complete suit of counters & maps. I understand playing over a computer might not appeal to some, its top notched quality plus the alternative being overpriced eBay purchases or years of waiting might balance it off.

Rgds Jack

 

[Gunner Scott]

Ah good to see a pitmann/ MMP lemming join the conversation. Not everybody plays on computers or wants to play on computers. People usually prefer playing with real counters.

Scott

I find this discourse interesting. (Apart from one individual comically trying hard to not be ignored lol.)

I for one has come to a better understanding of the different viewpoints.

On one hand, I think folks are free to use their hard earned money. On the other hand, we all, including said companies will all get what we deserve.

For newer folks in the hobby - if it suits your style of play - there's a wonderful software call VASL (vasl.info) that gives you the (almost) complete suit of counters & maps. I understand playing over a computer might not appeal to some, its top notched quality plus the alternative being overpriced eBay purchases or years of waiting might balance it off.

Rgds Jack

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Hahahhaha .. try to get your head out of Ray T's butt.

At least Pitman's consistent in his beliefs - instead of flipping between extremes like yourself.

I prefer real counters myself as well. Do try to read in whole sentences though. Try. LOL

Ah good to see a pitmann/ MMP lemming join the conversation. Not everybody plays on computers or wants to play on computers. People usually prefer playing with real counters.

Scott

 

[Gunner Scott]

Hmmmm, sounds like your talking from experience with Pitmann dude. Ok, now your going to run around and say how terrible the forums are like you usually do. Anyway, stop assuming and stop being an asshole.

Hahahhaha .. try to get your head out of Ray T's butt.

At least Pitman's consistent in his beliefs - instead of flipping between extremes like yourself.

I prefer real counters myself as well. Do try to read in whole sentences though. Try. LOL

 

[witchbottles]

ASL never stopped selling. But may retailers stopped *stocking* ASL products thanks to CH. The game is not dying at all; sales continue to be high. It inevitably will die, as will the wargaming hobby as we know it in general will, because the whole hobby is based upon the wargaming fad of the 1970s and early 1980s, but that is a totally separate issue. Nobody blamed Critical Hit for that; we have blamed Critical Hit for all the many specific things that Critical Hit has done over the years, things you seem to either ignore or are ignorant of.

I certainly do dislike Critical Hit, because it does bad things. In this, I am hardly alone; I stand with the majority of veteran ASLers, many of whom loathe Critical Hit far more than I do.

interesting that only a tiny minority of veteran ASL players is what keeps Critical Hit publishing ASL material?
Quite an opinion you have there.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Awwwwww poor thing. I hit a nerve didn't I?

Look, at least I didn't ignore you.

Hmmmm, sounds like your talking from experience with Pitmann dude. Ok, now your going to run around and say how terrible the forums are like you usually do. Anyway, stop assuming and stop being an asshole.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Your an asshole dude.

Awwwwww poor thing.

Look, at least I didn't ignore you.

 

[Bob Walters]

I am still trying to figure out why shops would be forced to all of a company's items or even have to carry any of a particular company's stuff. I just can not see that as a reason. I know of no store that sells the complete line of any company. However, where I live it is a moot point as there are just almost no stores that sell any ASL stuff and haven't for 30 years. It just does not sound like a valid argument.

 

[Pitman]

High is relative. I wouldn't say selling say 500-1000 of a particular game to be a particular high number. Especially when many people are buying multiple copies, I'm sure hoping to capitalize on the OOP sales down the road. Again, you find yourself needing to use the word ignorant. Feel free to pick the most offensive word possible to describe a situation where I may not have all the pertinent facts on the matter. I think case, however, I do know a lot of the back story. I just don't care. Because it's a game.

MMP does not sell 500-1000 of an ASL release. Its print runs are 5,000 and up for ASL products, depending on what product it is. Even tiny third party producers like Heat of Battle would make sell more than 500 copies of a product.

 

[Pitman]

I am still trying to figure out why shops would be forced to all of a company's items or even have to carry any of a particular company's stuff. I just can not see that as a reason. I know of no store that sells the complete line of any company. However, where I live it is a moot point as there are just almost no stores that sell any ASL stuff and haven't for 30 years. It just does not sound like a valid argument.

It may not be a valid argument. But nobody said anything even remotely resembling that.