Understanding the CH Counters.

[clubby]

There was a BRT that sold about 10 days ago for $605.

 

[Bob Walters]

What?! RS for CAN$ 1600 which is 1117 Euros? This is absolutely mental.

Considering that I have recently punched a RS, FKaC, AoO, HP, BV3 & Yanks2 just to "refresh" my counterset, I have foregone a fortune...

von Marwitz

Yep, AoO is almost never seen for less than $300 USD.

 

[Pitman]

CH obviously receives submissions from ASL designers. What is obvious now is that CH itself is not going to playtest or develop those submissions any further and so in a sense it is up to those original designers to make sure their product is as complete as possible before they submit it. CH is NOT responsible for creating all these new products - it is the work of other designers. So if you buy from CH you are essentially buying some ASL designers work which has not been modified by CH. I'm not going to start fussing that CH is the publisher - I'm more interested in buying the designs and ideas of other ASLers who have released their stuff. There is good stuff among all those releases.

This is basically bullshit. Ask around and you'll find that plenty of designers have had their work modified by CH, often arbitrarily and not for good reason. It is up to those original designers NOT TO SEND ANYTHING TO CRITICAL HIT. It is that simple. You do not solve a problem by enabling the problem-causer.

 

[Pitman]

I have no idea what you are talking about.
Politics?
Ethics?

Ethics. And when you help CH, you are giving a bone to a bad dog.

 

[Pitman]

An unpunched (2011) copy of 'For King and Country' just sold on ebay for $330.00 U.S, with shipping $52.00 U.S. It had 33 bids... Amazon is selling 'Rising Sun' for $1,600.00 (Canadian) 3 copies available. I'm pretty sure CH will be selling quite a few of their new Nationality Sets.

Apparently, if I accept your contention, to people who will pirate Chapter H.

 

[Pitman]

Recall also that purchasing used copies of games does not support MMP in any way so buying so I fail to see the problem with buying what is not available from someone else. Heck, it is likely I will buy the MMP modules when they are reprinted even though I purchased the new French Army Nationality Set.

The problem is from who you would be buying it. Were we talking about BFP counters, I would have no objection.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Both the Japanese and French counter sets look very nice and I think I might buy the 42 Russian Red counters for my RB CG.

Scott

 

[witchbottles]

The problem is from who you would be buying it. Were we talking about BFP counters, I would have no objection.

"...Overall, it must be said that the counters in PiF are disappointing. Though there are lots of counters, many of them duplicate counters ASLers already have, while others are really finicky variations of existing counters. And some of the new counters, such as the new leader types and the new squad types–especially the Soviet second line squad–are just plain bad ideas..."

Mark Pitcavage -: http://www.desperationmorale.com/products/poland-in-flames/

"...But when third party *publishers* try to implement major changes to ASL rules and key ASL design aspects, when they try to make people play ASL by their particular reinterpretation of what ASL should be instead of the official interpretation, they do a disservice to ASL and to ASL players. I didn't roll over for it when HOB tried to make people use crews for machineguns because they just couldn't stand playing by the rules and I certainly am not going to roll over when a third party publisher tries to introduce a Soviet 2nd line squad type and all sorts of new leader types just because they think they know better...." Mark Pitcavage - http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/the-innovative-ideas-of-pif.126104/page-5#post-1812845

There's BS and then there's BS....


You might reconsider Tom's words to the unwashed masses here about counter design:

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/help-needed-nationality-colour-matching.128849/#post-1847989

 

[Tooz]

Gulliver, I am now leaving this hijacked thread with one last comment. I like the third party counters more than MMP. I do not care for the CH! variant color counters simply because I already own too many sets. But, I do enjoy what I have. I love the added color to the artwork and really enjoy the camo AFVs.
I have just grown weary of using the same counters I have since 1985.
So, welcome to this feisty ASL forum but especially to the game system. Have fun and make your own choices.
And may the trolls be ignored.

 

[Honza]

This is basically bullshit. Ask around and you'll find that plenty of designers have had their work modified by CH, often arbitrarily and not for good reason.

Talking of ethics, try applying them to how you converse with other people. There is no need for such strong language.

Back to the topic - if CH is not developing and playtesting designs submitted to them then how do they modify them? Are you saying that CH change the designs submitted to them just for the sake of it?

 

[Gunner Scott]

Dude your playing into herr pitmanns hands, if u up and leave, he wins. His mission is to drive people out of the hobby and off message boards because he is a miserable little corporal.

Scott

Gulliver, I am now leaving this hijacked thread with one last comment. I like the third party counters more than MMP. I do not care for the CH! variant color counters simply because I already own too many sets. But, I do enjoy what I have. I love the added color to the artwork and really enjoy the camo AFVs.
I have just grown weary of using the same counters I have since 1985.
So, welcome to this feisty ASL forum but especially to the game system. Have fun and make your own choices.
And may the trolls be ignored.

 

[Alan Hume]

any one have any idea if Footsteps (Alan) has a website for his counters or if they are up for sale yet?
(not that I have the money to buy any at the moment, even selling my Conflict of Heroes collection, to focus on buying more ASL, hasn't afforded me much spending money, heh, everytime I sell something on ebay I just get peanuts)

 

[gulliver62]

What?! RS for CAN$ 1600 which is 1117 Euros? This is absolutely mental.

Considering that I have recently punched a RS, FKaC, AoO, HP, BV3 & Yanks2 just to "refresh" my counterset, I have foregone a fortune...

von Marwitz

As with anything else, that is the price that they are asking. You own it and can ask whatever you want. It's worth whatever someone is willing to pay you at that particular moment. The used market for anything has always been that way. There are sellers that sell at lower (more reasonable?) prices and turn over their inventory to keep making $$ and a living. There are those that stick a very high price tag on things, hold onto them for years, and bitch that the damn customers just don't want to pay what something is worth (not that I am biased one way or the other). I collected vintage books for years and vintage rifles for years, wife is into several vintage hobbys. Every one seems to have the same general mix. Of course with ASL you get the adder of new product actually coming to the market which puts a twist on used (or NOS) merchandise. Splits the market into collector/players and players. A really interesting example of that is Journal #2. The reprint is readily available for around $40 and gives the player everything they need. So, it would seem that only a collector/player would be willing to buy the original for more than that. It is a hobby, its supposed to be fun. It does also fuel my obsessive nature to 'have everything'.
ebay has always been an odd duck (well since it switched from a true flea market to a commercial outlet). People will regularly pay more for an item than they can get it for new or from somewhere else. The auction (or in the case of ebay, auction 'like') drives some of that behavior. The I have to get that kicks in and pushes up the price. Some of it is just lazy. I really found that with collecting Garands. People just don't do research and spend the time to learn enough and find enough outlets to get the best deals or the best quality (or sometimes even to really get what they think they are getting). I digress. I enjoy this game and the very limited number of people I have met so far. I hope that continues and I meet many more and can reach a point to attend some of the tournaments. I will never have the passion about it that some have as it will always be a diversion from other things for me.

 

[von Marwitz]

any one have any idea if Footsteps (Alan) has a website for his counters or if they are up for sale yet?

I don't know if he has a website. Recently he posted somewhere here that he is currently looking for a company to laser die-cut his counters. So I reckon, he is basically pretty close of being able to publish but has not done so yet.

von Marwitz

 

[Alan Hume]

I don't know if he has a website. Recently he posted somewhere here that he is currently looking for a company to laser die-cut his counters. So I reckon, he is basically pretty close of being able to publish but has not done so yet.

von Marwitz

Many thanks for the info, much appreciated,
sounds like he is moving forward which is great

 

[Pitman]

Talking of ethics, try applying them to how you converse with other people. There is no need for such strong language.

Back to the topic - if CH is not developing and playtesting designs submitted to them then how do they modify them? Are you saying that CH change the designs submitted to them just for the sake of it?

Sometimes they leave stuff out to save money or space or for other reasons, sometimes they eliminate stuff or change it because they want to KISS (keep it simple, stupid), sometimes they seem to change things so they don't have to spend time on game development for that part of the rules, and sometimes it is just not clear why they change things. Presumably sometimes they also change things to fix observed problems or issues, whether real or imagined.

I say "they," because you did, but it is of course "he."

I can't remember whether he told me about it in a private e-mail or talked about it publicly on boardgamegeek, but it was instructive to learn how the creator said RT treated the Gettysburg CWASL submission, for instance.

 

[Brad M-V]

Apparently, if I accept your contention, to people who will pirate Chapter H.

Good point, I never thought about that happening. I finally own most of the official modules now so can start using Chapter H I guess. Until now though, I've been blissfully ignorant to what Chapter H has to offer.

And you hit the nail on the head. However. one can occasionally get a pretty good deal on eBay. There was a copy of West of Alamein that just went for $75.00 (missed it by a dollar at the last minute.) I got both Gung Ho and Code of Bushido for about $50 bucks each around Christmas. In addition, I recently got Doomed Battalions for $152.00 (yes that is way too much but still justifiable) and Hollow Legions for just under a $100 (still too much but again justifiable). Conversely, Armies of Oblivion is always going to cost too much, usually way over $200, and Croix de Guerre is the same at way over $100 (recall CdG is a small module). One of the more interesting purchases was the countersheet with Hungarian AFVs from Festung Budapest for $15. Believe it or not that was the 2nd time I saw one for sale, I deliberated too long the first time a set appeared. Also I was able to buy a copy of Hakkaa Paalle (new) for $60. Recall also that purchasing used copies of games does not support MMP in any way so buying so I fail to see the problem with buying what is not available from someone else. Heck, it is likely I will buy the MMP modules when they are reprinted even though I purchased the new French Army Nationality Set.

You did really well on ebay, grats. I'm like you in that as I've been getting my hands on the official MMP counters, my preference has been to use them only as well. I will tweek-out my set with Footstep's counters for future f2f gaming in case I'm required to provide the counters... My nice new MMP counters will only ever have my finger oil on them! ;-) The good is MMP has started to crank out the reprints the last few years so I'm (finally) sitting with a respectable kit and can wait for the rest patiently. <g>

 

[Bob Walters]

Sometimes they leave stuff out to save money or space or for other reasons, sometimes they eliminate stuff or change it because they want to KISS (keep it simple, stupid), sometimes they seem to change things so they don't have to spend time on game development for that part of the rules, and sometimes it is just not clear why they change things. Presumably sometimes they also change things to fix observed problems or issues, whether real or imagined.

I say "they," because you did, but it is of course "he."

I can't remember whether he told me about it in a private e-mail or talked about it publicly on boardgamegeek, but it was instructive to learn how the creator said RT treated the Gettysburg CWASL submission, for instance.

I can see where that might piss people off. However, none of that seems like it really hurts people. The one run in I have had with their customer service was positive and I felt they bent over backward to help me. I got the wrong counters and a misprinted page with Ruweisat Ridge. It took a couple of weeks and I had to send back the old stuff first (I am used to companies that cross ship but as I have said before I understand it because publishing war games is not particularly profitable) but what I got in return I think made up for it. I do try to avoid companies that are particularly egregious in their actions and I do not see CH making that list.

 

[Bob Walters]

Good point, I never thought about that happening. I finally own most of the official modules now so can start using Chapter H I guess. Until now though, I've been blissfully ignorant to what Chapter H has to offer.

You did really well on ebay, grats. I'm like you in that as I've been getting my hands on the official MMP counters, my preference has been to use them only as well. I will tweek-out my set with Footstep's counters for future f2f gaming in case I'm required to provide the counters... My nice new MMP counters will only ever have my finger oil on them! ;-) The good is MMP has started to crank out the reprints the last few years so I'm (finally) sitting with a respectable kit and can wait for the rest patiently. <g>

One has to be disciplined and watch eBay closely to get what one needs for a decent price. Still I will not pay over $100 for Croix de Guerre or $200 for Armies of Oblivion. So I am looking forward to the French nationality set (already purchased) and I hear a Axis Minor set that will be coming later this year from CH to fill those gaps. When MMP reprints them I will probably also buy them. As to Chapter H, until MMP reprints those modules I can get the necessary information from 3rd party AFV cards and the dozens of books on WW2 AFVs I have on my bookshelves. One sticking point on MMP's vehicle notes is their lack of sources, I always wonder about accuracy when there is no sources cited.

 

[kynken]

I like the new counters that CH is producing these days.

He is far closer to WBW than to MMP, BFP, etc.

I don't get the big deal about game counters. CH's counter foray has gotten better over the years. Not talking about their various modules that include WWI, Civil War, Korea and Vietnam, those are untested and come with the horrible map panels. But I am talking counters, not historical modules. I, unashamed and willing, do purchase counters from CH. My French counters, grossly faded and played, need a desperate upgrade. I will buy the French module by MMP, I buy just about anything MMP puts out, when it comes out, but I don't have to wait two years to get replacement OOB, CH is putting it out in the next month or so. Yes, I bought. Not ashamed.

I respect Pitman's opinion and his website, but counters are counters and CH's versions does not cheapen the game in any way.

rant off.