Understanding the CH Counters.

[kynken]

"Just because you have a "right" to do something does not mean that you should be doing it. You have a right to buy stock in companies that profit off of slave or child labor, but many would look askance at your so doing."
We are talking about playing a game, right? This is about ASL, correct? I am talking about cardboard counters that I push around on cardboard maps.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Politics?
Ethics?
I play a fun game called ASL. it is a hobby. It is not life. It is not MY WHOLE LIFE. It really is not important. It's just fun.
What ASL is to you must mean a lot more.
Slave or child labor? Pretty bizarre comparison to just playing a game where we push counters and roll dice.

Nicely put and my sentiments exactly. I guess my pitchfork got in Pittman's way when I was buying those devil red counters from CH.

 

[Pitman]

I can see where that might piss people off. However, none of that seems like it really hurts people. The one run in I have had with their customer service was positive and I felt they bent over backward to help me. I got the wrong counters and a misprinted page with Ruweisat Ridge. It took a couple of weeks and I had to send back the old stuff first (I am used to companies that cross ship but as I have said before I understand it because publishing war games is not particularly profitable) but what I got in return I think made up for it. I do try to avoid companies that are particularly egregious in their actions and I do not see CH making that list.

First of all, I didn't say it hurt people. I didn't express an opinion on that issue. I was responding to the previous post. Second, this has nothing to do with customer service or missing components.

 

[Pitman]

I like the new counters that CH is producing these days.

I don't get the big deal about game counters. CH's counter foray has gotten better over the years. Not talking about their various modules that include WWI, Civil War, Korea and Vietnam, those are untested and come with the horrible map panels. But I am talking counters, not historical modules. I, unashamed and willing, do purchase counters from CH. My French counters, grossly faded and played, need a desperate upgrade. I will buy the French module by MMP, I buy just about anything MMP puts out, when it comes out, but I don't have to wait two years to get replacement OOB, CH is putting it out in the next month or so. Yes, I bought. Not ashamed.

I respect Pitman's opinion and his website, but counters are counters and CH's versions does not cheapen the game in any way.

rant off.

You clearly don't get it. The counters could be so good as to be God's gift to wargamers, for all it matters. The quality of the counters is irrelevant. The point is that buying Critical Hit stuff, WHATEVER THAT STUFF IS, helps Critical Hit and helping Critical Hit is BAD. Critical Hit is overall a detriment to ASL and has been for many years.

There are REASONS so many people refuse to buy CH stuff.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Dude, your a detriment to ASL!!!!!

You clearly don't get it. The counters could be so good as to be God's gift to wargamers, for all it matters. The quality of the counters is irrelevant. The point is that buying Critical Hit stuff, WHATEVER THAT STUFF IS, helps Critical Hit and helping Critical Hit is BAD. Critical Hit is overall a detriment to ASL and has been for many years.

There are REASONS so many people refuse to buy CH stuff.

 

[mryder]

any one have any idea if Footsteps (Alan) has a website for his counters or if they are up for sale yet?
(not that I have the money to buy any at the moment, even selling my Conflict of Heroes collection, to focus on buying more ASL, hasn't afforded me much spending money, heh, everytime I sell something on ebay I just get peanuts)

http://www.brokenground.design/

 

[kynken]

Dude, your a detriment to ASL!!!!!

I feel really proud to be trolled by the master ASL himself, the one and only DM and undisputed king, Mr. Pitman.

I am not here to get into an ethics debate on what Critical Hit has done or not done to the world of ASL. It is just a game. A hobby I have been playing since 1982. If they, by providing a non-MMP alternative to counters, they are just that, cardboard counters. They do not threaten the entire game system or cause many sleepless nights to hard-core enthusiastic players. I am just talking counters,not HASL, WW I, US Civil War, Korea or even Vietnam and other lightly play tested material, just simple counters.

I enjoy the banter of this board, even disagreements are good, if they are discussed without hatred or malice. I guess, according to MP, maybe I don't get it. But then again, I do get this, the CH counters have been getting better as time goes on. I did order the French OOB and the Red Russian OOB and I know I will sleep like a baby knowing that I made that purchase. Why, because it is just a game and these are part of that game. MMP is not going bankrupt due to lack of products. I was one of the firsts to order Forgotten War, for I do buy almost everything MMP puts out.

.02 cents + .02 cents = a whole lotta luck and respect for my fellow players.

 

[Gunner Scott]

MMP aint losing a dime. Heck I just put my order in for the Red Russians 42 set. They are going to look very kool on my RB map.

Scott

 

[clubby]

It's just a game is the only right answer. If you think somebody producing crappy ASL products is hurting a game you're really not familiar with a lot of the words you're using to express yourself.

 

[Gunner Scott]

When pitman quits the hobby, I think a lot of people will be jumping for joy.

It's just a game is the only right answer. If you think somebody producing crappy ASL products is hurting a game you're really not familiar with a lot of the words you're using to express yourself.

 

[Honza]

Sometimes they leave stuff out to save money or space or for other reasons, sometimes they eliminate stuff or change it because they want to KISS (keep it simple, stupid), sometimes they seem to change things so they don't have to spend time on game development for that part of the rules, and sometimes it is just not clear why they change things. Presumably sometimes they also change things to fix observed problems or issues, whether real or imagined.

I say "they," because you did, but it is of course "he."

I can't remember whether he told me about it in a private e-mail or talked about it publicly on boardgamegeek, but it was instructive to learn how the creator said RT treated the Gettysburg CWASL submission, for instance.

Yes that is pretty bad. The designers and customers deserve better. I see what you are saying about CH. They are unethical, dishonest and really couldn't care less. BUT they do release interesting ASL in various forms of completion. Either I put morals first and boycott the company or I buy what I feel I want and let 'cosmic karma' do the rest. Rats tend to get their comeuppance eventually - particularly if you believe in such things a God etc. I do not feel I need to punish or avoid Ray particularly because in a way he is digging his own hole. I feel I will buy what I want from him and let him decide what his fate will be. I don't think he is particularly bad as such; but he is a rat. Ultimately it is not something I feel strongly enough about to worry me too much.

 

[Pitman]

It's just a game is the only right answer. If you think somebody producing crappy ASL products is hurting a game you're really not familiar with a lot of the words you're using to express yourself.

Don't be ignorant. A number of retailers stopped carrying ASL products in the late 1990s and early 2000s because their shelves were flooded with crappy CH products that wouldn't sell, causing the retailers to think that ASL didn't sell. That's just one of many ways CH crap has hurt ASL as a whole.

 

[clubby]

Don't be ignorant? I'll tell you what, you're very quick with the name calling and insults. It's a specious argument anyway, ASL stopped selling because there is a very limited market for the product and for whatever reason retailers thought that flooding their shelves with any ASL products would lead to new players picking up the game. We plainly know that isn't true because any game day or tournament you guy to is filled with guys in their 50-60s with the occasional player in their 30s and maybe a trickle in their 40s.

You obviously hate Critical Hit and Ray Tapio. But blaming Ray Tapio for the demise of a gaming system because he produces crappy products (in your opinion and the opinion of a few others) is illogical and unfounded. The game is dying because kids my son's age, for example, didn't grow up playing board games, they don't know much about WWII and it's just a hard game to learn. My son is a very smart kid and he's good at ASL. Very good. He doesn't enjoy playing it. It's too slow for him. It's too much like homework. There's no fancy graphics to look at. Blaming Ray Tapio and Critical Hit for that is like blaming Polaroid for photographs printed on paper not being used anymore. It's your way of trying to justify your hatred for him and making it look like it's some kind of "professional" grudge. It's a game.

In any case, I'm done arguing with you about it. Because frankly, I don't really give a crap about Critical Hit nor do I give a crap about your opinion on what a burden to society Ray is. Nobody is going to change your mind. But please don't insult our intelligence by trying to explain your behavior as trying to protect the integrity of a board game.

 

[RRschultze]

As with anything else, that is the price that they are asking. You own it and can ask whatever you want. It's worth whatever someone is willing to pay you at that particular moment. The used market for anything has always been that way. There are sellers that sell at lower (more reasonable?) prices and turn over their inventory to keep making $$ and a living. There are those that stick a very high price tag on things, hold onto them for years, and bitch that the damn customers just don't want to pay what something is worth (not that I am biased one way or the other). I collected vintage books for years and vintage rifles for years, wife is into several vintage hobbys. Every one seems to have the same general mix. Of course with ASL you get the adder of new product actually coming to the market which puts a twist on used (or NOS) merchandise. Splits the market into collector/players and players. A really interesting example of that is Journal #2. The reprint is readily available for around $40 and gives the player everything they need. So, it would seem that only a collector/player would be willing to buy the original for more than that. It is a hobby, its supposed to be fun. It does also fuel my obsessive nature to 'have everything'.
ebay has always been an odd duck (well since it switched from a true flea market to a commercial outlet). People will regularly pay more for an item than they can get it for new or from somewhere else. The auction (or in the case of ebay, auction 'like') drives some of that behavior. The I have to get that kicks in and pushes up the price. Some of it is just lazy. I really found that with collecting Garands. People just don't do research and spend the time to learn enough and find enough outlets to get the best deals or the best quality (or sometimes even to really get what they think they are getting). I digress. I enjoy this game and the very limited number of people I have met so far. I hope that continues and I meet many more and can reach a point to attend some of the tournaments. I will never have the passion about it that some have as it will always be a diversion from other things for me.

Wow! Long post you should have just said 'supply and demand'

 

[Alan Hume]

http://www.brokenground.design/

Thanks for the link, really happy to see his stuff up there, looks good

 

[Honza]

Don't be ignorant? I'll tell you what, you're very quick with the name calling and insults.

One thing I have noticed time and again about the people who claim to be disgusted with CH, Ray or things like SS dice and black counters is that they are not particularly ethical about how they treat other people. They are normally the first to start insulting others in any conversation. If one is to start talking about ethics and conscientiousness then you ought to lead by example. Plenty of good and conscientious people don't mind CH, Ray, SS dice and black counters. Plenty of unscrupulous people actually DO mind!

 

[gulliver62]

Wow! Long post you should have just said 'supply and demand'

I can ramble on occasion

 

[Mister T]

These nationality sets are one step further in copyright infrigement.
If counter sales are good, then the next step would be to release copies of oop modules with maps, counters and scenarios. And MMP would be hurt further.

 

[Alan Hume]

well, all I can say is if MMP provided the counters as individual sets then we wouldn't have to go to third party producers for them
and it hasn't hurt MMP at all as far as I'm concerned, I still try and buy everything MMP bring out for ASL

 

[Gunner Scott]

George, stop sucking up to MMP lol

These nationality sets are one step further in copyright infrigement.
If counter sales are good, then the next step would be to release copies of oop modules with maps, counters and scenarios. And MMP would be hurt further.

 

[Bob Walters]

If they were copyright infringements then they would not be allowed. None of these companies are operating in the backstreets of a developing nation. They all operate in the open besides I truly doubt they have any affect on MMP's bottom line. Nobody buys red colored Soviet counters so they do not have to buy Beyond Valor.