Mortar fire from rubble

[pward]

"A rubble location is no longer a building location". Therefore it can never be an upper level building location. It can exist above building locations in some instances, but it ceases to be part of the "building" because it's not a building location.

 

[Larry]

Neither chapter C nor chapter B in reference to guns in buildings uses the phrase "upper building location." The ground floor is a building location. The first floor is rubble. How would you write that you could or could not put a gun in that rubble? COWTRA. It is still a building and the rubble is in a building hex.

 

[jwb3]

The point of the upper level building rule is that other guns can't set up in the upper level building because there was no way to get them up there. The mortar can be dm'd and portaged; the fortified building situation assumes that as there was enough time to fortify the upper level before the start of the scenario, there was also enough time to move the gun up there by one means or another.

Likewise, the point of the mortars-from-rooftops rule is that the only thing preventing the mortar from firing from the next level down is the roof. Once that roof is gone, there's no reason the mortar can't fire.

So if the mortar can get to the upper level rubble, it can fire from the upper level rubble.

If that logic is not persuasive enough, then the question might as well be submitted to Perry -- as with all other questions where the obscenity known as COWTRA has been invoked! :bite:


John

 

[Robin Reeve]

If that logic is not persuasive enough

It is a realism argument logic... I think that some official confirmation of that logic from Mr Rules' master would help...

 

[pward]

Neither chapter C nor chapter B in reference to guns in buildings uses the phrase "upper building location." The ground floor is a building location. The first floor is rubble. How would you write that you could or could not put a gun in that rubble? COWTRA. It is still a building and the rubble is in a building hex.

The rules for placement at setup are clear. Generally, the unit must be able to enter that location during the course of play. Allowance is made for a small gun (<=76mm) to setup at start in an upper level stone building location, if the level(s) below it are fortified along with that location. (Ignoring factories and VotG/RB SSR for now.)

A mortar can enter that rubble location dm, and be reassembled in the rubble. There is no rule that disallows firing from a rubble location, regardless of the presence of the building below the rubble location.

Again, the rubble location is no longer a building location, so it can't continue to be an upper level building location for the purposes of gun setup and fire. You can't push a gun upstairs using manhandling, but a small mortar can be dismantled and carried there as a SW.

It's a reality argument to take the setup and entry rules, and think that it takes complete account of the physics of firing a gun in a building.

B23.423 GUNS: No weapon depicted on a 5/8" counter may occupy an upper level of a building [EXC: Mortars (23.85); Fortified Building (23.93)]. A non-vehicular weapon on a 5/8" counter may be set up or pushed into a building/rubble only if it is either a small target (C2.271) or an AT/INF Gun that is not a large target. Mortar fire, and MG/Gun attacks vs Aerial targets, are not allowed from a non-rooftop building Location.​

So setup instructions and requirements for both rubble and ground level of buildings. Fire is only restricted for two instances, mortars and attacks against aerial targets have to be from rooftops. Since the rubble isn't a building location, fire is not restricted.

 

[Tater]

"A rubble location is no longer a building location". Therefore it can never be an upper level building location. It can exist above building locations in some instances, but it ceases to be part of the "building" because it's not a building location.

So that means the rubble location can't be entered from any location of that building since it isn't "part of the building"...

Hear that folks, upper level rubble locations are now located in deminsion X. :laugh:

FYI, not being a building location doesn't mean the location isn't part of the building. :nuts:

 

[Robin Reeve]

Hear that folks, upper level rubble locations are now located in deminsion X. :laugh:

Your spelling too.:laugh:

 

[pward]

So that means the rubble location can't be entered from any location of that building since it isn't "part of the building"...

Hear that folks, upper level rubble locations are now located in deminsion X. :laugh:

FYI, not being a building location doesn't mean the location isn't part of the building. :nuts:

Nice try Tater, there is a rule connecting the rubble location to the next lower location.

B24.4 Stairwell movement to or from a rubble level also costs three MF, not the normal one MF cost for changing levels via a stairwell.​

It still exists in a building hex, above a building location. However it is not a building location itself.

The rules restricting fire from only refer to building locations, not building hexes. Although there are restrictions on the size of a gun that can enter a rubble location, most mortars are allowed.

 

[L'Emperor]

... and the crew would be dismantled, I presume...

You been watching "Texas Chainsaw Massecre" lately?

If you dismantle a SMC, does he cost lest to portage?

 

[pward]

If you dismantle a SMC, does he cost lest to portage?

No, in the now wounded state he's still 5 PP because of the flailing about and screaming in agony.

 

[Jockster]

Soooo, if the ground level is fortified, then one should be able to place a 5/8" morter in the rubble above it. Otherwise I would say not.

 

[pward]

No need to be fortified, for the reasons mentioned above.

Please keep the entry requirements separate from the firing requirements.

 

[Jockster]

I always thought that the purpose of the fortified level below was so the floor could handle the concussion of a gun firing.

 

[pward]

I always thought that the purpose of the fortified level below was so the floor could handle the concussion of a gun firing.

From a reality POV you are probably correct. The rules say different. The fortification requirement is there for setup in the location by certain guns, not for firing.

The reality argument may also be for the other guns that had heavy carriages and whatnot that goes with the gun. Compare the weight of a mortar to the weight of a small AT gun. From various Wikipedia pages: US 81mm MTR (M1) = 136 pounds, US 37mm AT (M3) = 912 pounds or Bofors 37mm = 816 pounds.

Firing limitations are for mortars in building locations (has to be a rooftop, or roofless), and fire against aerial targets is NA from a building location (not like a mortar will be doing that anyhow).

The rubble is no longer a building location, so it doesn't apply to the mortar fire from that location (besides there isn't a roof or other level above it anyhow).

It might very well be a loophole not intended by the designers, but it's not how the rules read.

 

[apbills]

From a reality POV you are probably correct. The rules say different. The fortification requirement is there for setup in the location by certain guns, not for firing.

The reality argument may also be for the other guns that had heavy carriages and whatnot that goes with the gun. Compare the weight of a mortar to the weight of a small AT gun. From various Wikipedia pages: US 81mm MTR (M1) = 136 pounds, US 37mm AT (M3) = 912 pounds or Bofors 37mm = 816 pounds.

Firing limitations are for mortars in building locations (has to be a rooftop, or roofless), and fire against aerial targets is NA from a building location (not like a mortar will be doing that anyhow).

The rubble is no longer a building location, so it doesn't apply to the mortar fire from that location (besides there isn't a roof or other level above it anyhow).

It might very well be a loophole not intended by the designers, but it's not how the rules read.

Well, B23.423 states that "No weapon depicted on a 5/8" counter may occupy an upper level of a building [EXC: Mortars (23.85); Fortified Building (
23.93)]. "

If the upper level of a building is rubbled, it is still an upper level of a building. The rubble is placed on a building level counter.

The exception only calls for Mortars to be fired from rooftops.

The next part of the 24.423 rule allows mortars to be set up in a rubble location since they are small targets. DO you believe this counters the limitation in the first sentence? I don't, since that would mean AT guns could be placed in the upper level of buildings without the need for fortification.

I don't see how you can have a 5/8" counter in the upper level of a building, regardless of terrain, unless you fit into the exceptions - i.e., either on the rooftop for a mortar or in a fortified building location.

The rule does not state "upper level building Location".

Also notice from B23.421. If you are on a level counter you are in an upper level of a multi-level building.

I see no conflict with being in a "Rubble Location" that is in the upper level of a building.

 

[Jon]

The rules restricting fire from only refer to building locations, not building hexes. Although there are restrictions on the size of a gun that can enter a rubble location, most mortars are allowed.

Again, I point you to B23.423
And the rule does not refer to building Locations when restricting fire, it refers to buildings.

Now we know an upper level Rubble Location is no longer a Building Location. However that doesn't mean it is no longer part of a building hex or of a building.

See also the B24.12 EX "Hex 6J8 is a third level building which has just been rubbled from the second level up"

Now maybe B23.423 should have errata , e.g. change "upper level of a building" to upper level building Location" but at this point in time, it doesn't.

I believe a Perry Sez would be needed to allow a 5/8" weapon to be in an upper Level Rubble Location.

Your interpretation would allow the following situation to occur:
Using the 23.22 illustration of a two story house, assume the Level 1 Location of bulding hex G1 is rubbled. The ground level Location of G1 is NOT Fortified. In an adjacent open ground hex, are two German squads, a crew, and a 75L Pak 40 AT Gun [M#8].

Mph 1: The crew and squads try to push the Gun into the ground level of bulding G1 [M#8, Manhandling DRMs +4 {2MF entry cost doubled}, +2 hex tem, -4 for the additinal two pushing squads, so net Manhandling DRM is +2
They will get the AT gun into the building on a DR of 6 or less.

MPh 2: Now by your reasoning, the upper level of G1 is not a building Location or a building. So there is no reason why the Gun can not be pushed to the upper level Rubble Location
So M#8, DRMs +3 wooden rubble tem, +6 {rubble stairwell cost of 3MF, then doubled}, -4 two additional squads pushing, for a net DRM of +5. So a DR of 3 gets the gun upstairs [A DR of 5 or less if needed if a Low Ammo counter is placed on the Gun]. If there was enough time, you could get it there on a DR 7, with a -2 labour staus counter

Are you saying you believe that to be correct, that a non- large target AT Gun can be Pushed to an upper Level Rubble Location and then fired from there?

Cheers
Jon

 

[pward]

Well, B23.423 states that "No weapon depicted on a 5/8" counter may occupy an upper level of a building [EXC: Mortars (23.85); Fortified Building (23.93)]. "

If the upper level of a building is rubbled, it is still an upper level of a building. The rubble is placed on a building level counter.

Because a rubble location is no longer a building location, it can't be part of a building. (Otherwise it would continue to be a valid building location.)

The exception only calls for Mortars to be fired from rooftops.

Because rooftops are by definition building locations.

The next part of the 23.423 rule allows mortars to be set up in a rubble location since they are small targets. DO you believe this counters the limitation in the first sentence? I don't, since that would mean AT guns could be placed in the upper level of buildings without the need for fortification.

I don't see how you can have a 5/8" counter in the upper level of a building, regardless of terrain, unless you fit into the exceptions - i.e., either on the rooftop for a mortar or in a fortified building location.

The rule does not state "upper level building Location".

The first sentence in 23.423 applies to upper levels of buildings only, not to rubble which is not a building. It also references occupation (which I guess covers setup and entry in one word), not firing. The second sentence brings in the building/rubble. It doesn't counter the limitations of the first sentence at all when the question is about a rubble location that is reached when the mortar in question is dismantled and carried as a SW to the rubble location.

You may not move by any method (manhandle/tow/teleport), a 5/8" counter upstairs during play. Since to get it upstairs legally while remaining a 5/8" counter, you would have to have a fortified ground level location and upper level location. But you can't move from a fortified location with a 5/8" gun.

The key here is the dismantling of the weapon to 1/2" size. (It would also apply to the SW sized INF/RCL guns obviously, but I seem to remember another gun that transforms to a SW with PP when dismantled). The small counter can occupy the interim locations of the building to get the weapon to the rubble or rooftop location. (In fact for rooftops, it's mentioned that it must be dm to move to/from/between rooftop locations.)

Also notice from B23.421. If you are on a level counter you are in an upper level of a multi-level building.

I see no conflict with being in a "Rubble Location" that is in the upper level of a building.

Ok, as a reminder of the height of the rubble location, you're using a level counter. The presence of that counter still doesn't change the rubble location back into a building location.

Does the presence of a "building location" or just a "building" above a sewer location turn that sewer location into a building location? Obviously not, so it doesn't automagically contradict the non-building status of the rubble location either.

 

[pward]

Again, I point you to B23.423
And the rule does not refer to building Locations when restricting fire, it refers to buildings.

Now we know an upper level Rubble Location is no longer a Building Location. However that doesn't mean it is no longer part of a building hex or of a building.

Ok, last time. A rubble location is not a building location, so rules that apply to buildings don't apply to rubble unless specified. They are in separate sections of the rules for a reason. There in the first paragraph of the rubble rules it's quite clear the distinction between them. Rubble is not a building, buildings completely reduced to rubble are not buildings anymore.

See also the B24.12 EX "Hex 6J8 is a third level building which has just been rubbled from the second level up"

Ok, so the hex has an SSR third level, but just had the top two levels rubbled so you have a ground level, level 1 and a rubble counter on a level two counter. I don't see your point about this description of the hex being a third level building that's had part converted to rubble.

Now maybe B23.423 should have errata , e.g. change "upper level of a building" to upper level building Location" but at this point in time, it doesn't.

I believe a Perry Sez would be needed to allow a 5/8" weapon to be in an upper Level Rubble Location.

No errata or perry sez required.

Your interpretation would allow the following situation to occur:
Using the 23.22 illustration of a two story house, assume the Level 1 Location of bulding hex G1 is rubbled. The ground level Location of G1 is NOT Fortified. In an adjacent open ground hex, are two German squads, a crew, and a 75L Pak 40 AT Gun [M#8].

Mph 1: The crew and squads try to push the Gun into the ground level of bulding G1 [M#8, Manhandling DRMs +4 {2MF entry cost doubled}, +2 hex tem, -4 for the additinal two pushing squads, so net Manhandling DRM is +2
They will get the AT gun into the building on a DR of 6 or less.

MPh 2: Now by your reasoning, the upper level of G1 is not a building Location or a building. So there is no reason why the Gun can not be pushed to the upper level Rubble Location
So M#8, DRMs +3 wooden rubble tem, +6 {rubble stairwell cost of 3MF, then doubled}, -4 two additional squads pushing, for a net DRM of +5. So a DR of 3 gets the gun upstairs [A DR of 5 or less if needed if a Low Ammo counter is placed on the Gun]. If there was enough time, you could get it there on a DR 7, with a -2 labour staus counter

Are you saying you believe that to be correct, that a non- large target AT Gun can be Pushed to an upper Level Rubble Location and then fired from there?

Cheers
Jon

Not quite. The pushing rules say nothing about locations, only hexes. For buildings and pillboxes there is this:

See B23.423, B23.85, B23.93 and 2.7 for pushing Guns into a building (B30.45 for pillbox).​

Which brings us right back to the occupation by a 5/8" counter...

So you can't push a gun upstairs during play, even if it is a rubble location you're going to. The only way to go from the level you are on, to the one above you is as a dismantled weapon. (Oddly enough this jives with the pillbox and rooftop rules; no removal or entry of 5/8" guns unless dm to SW size.)

 

[Robin Reeve]

I sent the following series of questions to Perry, via MMP's Q&A facility :

1) May a Mortar fire from a Ground Level Rubble Location ?

2) May a 5/8" Mortar fire from an upper Level Rubble Location :
2a) if the lower level(s) of the building are fortified
2b) if the lower level(s) of the building are not fortified

3) May a 1/2" SW Light Mortar fire from an upper Level Rubble Location :
3a) if the lower level(s) of the building are fortified
3b) if the lower level(s) of the building are not fortified

Wait and see...

 

[Robin Reeve]

So you can't push a gun upstairs during play, even if it is a rubble location you're going to. The only way to go from the level you are on, to the one above you is as a dismantled weapon. (Oddly enough this jives with the pillbox and rooftop rules; no removal or entry of 5/8" guns unless dm to SW size.)

Add to this the authorization of setting up a 5/8" Gun at the Upper Level of a Fortified building.