What counter to use for Hitler Youth

[Alan Hume]

Been checking some online BBC resource again about the battle for the Ibbenburen ridge (another Royal Scots scenario, featuring the 6th HLI this time as well) in April 1945

Turns out, that they list the enemy as SS leaders with Hitler Youth, well, everyone else, including books has them as Hanover Battle School so that's a new one on me

so, guess I am going to roll with ELEMENTS OF HANOVER BATTLESCHOOL and LOCAL HITLER YOUTH
and make a couple of the leaders SS (and, copying Pete Shelling's Nuremberg scenario SSR from Journal 9) and give them Commissar abilities

really new one to me that, so, anyhow, what counters would you use for Hitler youth?
in GOLDEN PHEASANTS, the Local Hitler youth and volksturm are represented by second line 4-4-7 and conscript 4-3-6
I am guessing the 4-4-7 are meant to be Hitler youth and the 4-3-6 the volksturm but I would probably go with making the Hitler youth the conscript 4-3-6 myself

what do you guys think?

 

[Srynerson]

Been checking some online BBC resource again about the battle for the Ibbenburen ridge (another Royal Scots scenario, featuring the 6th HLI this time as well) in April 1945

Turns out, that they list the enemy as SS leaders with Hitler Youth, well, everyone else, including books has them as Hanover Battle School so that's a new one on me

so, guess I am going to roll with ELEMENTS OF HANOVER BATTLESCHOOL and LOCAL HITLER YOUTH
and make a couple of the leaders SS (and, copying Pete Shelling's Nuremberg scenario SSR from Journal 9) and give them Commissar abilities

really new one to me that, so, anyhow, what counters would you use for Hitler youth?
in GOLDEN PHEASANTS, the Local Hitler youth and volksturm are represented by second line 4-4-7 and conscript 4-3-6
I am guessing the 4-4-7 are meant to be Hitler youth and the 4-3-6 the volksturm but I would probably go with making the Hitler youth the conscript 4-3-6 myself

what do you guys think?

I'd say which one you choose would depend entirely on how well they performed in the actual battle. There's no specifically designated squad type for HJ troops, and I believe they've been represented by both 4-4-7 and 4-3-6 squad types in various official scenarios.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

If the Germans had both a Battle School and HJ, then you should have a mix of poor troops, 447+436 (HJ) and a very few elite with a good number of leaders to represent the instructors and staff.

 

[Alan Hume]

Thanks guys,
yeah, I've got a mix of a couple of 5-4-8, a lot of 4-4-7 and some 4-3-6 (to represent the Hitlery youth)
all the troops fought fanatically so they are all rated as fanatics and all the leaders are SS wiht a special Commissar SR as per
Pete Shelling's Nuremberg scenario (yeah, I just stole it:laugh:

got a 9-1 an 8-1 and 3 7-0's to represent the staff/SS leaders

 

[witchbottles]

Critical Hit Berlin modules has 4-2-7 Hitler Youth counters for April / May 1945 and 2-2-6 Hitler Youth "Anti-tank Fusilier Teams" as they were termed, for the same period. ( those 2-2-6 HS units get a -1 to their PF check dr in addition to the 1945 pf drm and the HS check drm).

SSRs made them treated as "Allied Troops" by any non-Hitler Youth leader. They had Hitler Youth leader counters > 8-1,8-0,8+1,7-0,7+1,6+1.

good resource, you can find the artwork in the VASL "TL.vdmx" extension if desired.

KRL, Jon H

 

[Alan Hume]

Critical Hit Berlin modules has 4-2-7 Hitler Youth counters for April / May 1945 and 2-2-6 Hitler Youth "Anti-tank Fusilier Teams" as they were termed, for the same period. ( those 2-2-6 HS units get a -1 to their PF check dr in addition to the 1945 pf drm and the HS check drm).

SSRs made them treated as "Allied Troops" by any non-Hitler Youth leader. They had Hitler Youth leader counters > 8-1,8-0,8+1,7-0,7+1,6+1.

good resource, you can find the artwork in the VASL "TL.vdmx" extension if desired.

KRL, Jon H

Thanks for the heads up Jon, appreciated.
the half-squad anti-tank fusilier teams sound interesting
no real mention of panzerfaust teams in anything I've read of this battle, mortars and suchlike yes, panzerfausts no
though there must have been a lot about and, certainly, on other days in the same battle when other British Army units attacked (English ones who, to my shame, I can't remember the name of) alongside 11th armoured Comet tanks and suchlike

probably stick with the 4-3-6 at the minute though could well change it if need be I guess

 

[RRschultze]

Thanks for the heads up Jon, appreciated.
the half-squad anti-tank fusilier teams sound interesting
no real mention of panzerfaust teams in anything I've read of this battle, mortars and suchlike yes, panzerfausts no
though there must have been a lot about and, certainly, on other days in the same battle when other British Army units attacked (English ones who, to my shame, I can't remember the name of) alongside 11th armoured Comet tanks and suchlike

probably stick with the 4-3-6 at the minute though could well change it if need be I guess

Wouldn't have them as 4-3-6's as they were fanatical - Havent got my Berlin rules to hand but i think they are self rally capable or self rally capable in a fanatic strong point

 

[Alan Hume]

Wouldn't have them as 4-3-6's as they were fanatical - Havent got my Berlin rules to hand but i think they are self rally capable or self rally capable in a fanatic strong point

They certainly were fanatical in this case, everything I have read about this battle (which went on for days and days with various different British units being thrown into the fighting) says that they fought like fanatics and put up a desperate stand

 

[witchbottles]

Wouldn't have them as 4-3-6's as they were fanatical - Havent got my Berlin rules to hand but i think they are self rally capable or self rally capable in a fanatic strong point

Mark Porterfield gave them as 4-2-7s with NO ability to self-rally, and not fanatic, they were originally immune to PAATC if stacked with a HY leader.

Given the depth of research I have done into Berlin 1945 since 2014, I can with confidence say that giving the HY units any fanatic benefits in regular fighting in the city is a bit of an over reach, to put it lightly.

The men and boys who held at Himmler's House, the Kroll Opera House, the Reichstag, the RSHA, Reich Air Ministry, and Potsdamer and Anhalter stations ( just to cover sector Z) fought fanatically and with desperation to avoid becmoing Russian prisoners. Mark Porterfield gave units in those locations fanatic benefits, not the units themselves.

The mish-mash that defended greater Berlin in late April 1945 consisted of levees of Volksturm ( 4-3-6 with a 5 ML broken and a +4 DRM to any HOB); levees of LW anti-aircraft crews (1-2-7 self rally crews with a fair number of 88mm; 40mm; and 20mm guns. While manning a Gun - they would be fanatic - but against ground targets suffer an additional +1 DRM To hit or a +1 IFE DRM, and lower ROF by 1 for the Gun. They were used to fighting their gun in an elevated position for long spans of combat without taking shelter. Ground use was a different creature, however.) The surviving forces that had arrived from the Seelow / Oder river line battles and were nothing more than small platoons or ad hoc companies ( 4-4-7s). The Hitler Youth mustered to fight (4-2-7 with no PAATC when stacked with a HY leader, 2-2-6 HY anti-tank teams with -1 drms for PF availability. Treated as Allied troops under command of a leader not from the HY). The radicalized Nazi guards of the RSHA, the Reich Chancellery, and Lehrterstrasse Prison. ( 4-3-7s that can only be influenced by Nazi leaders, who act as Commissars for those troops. Small units up to two platoon size, scattered across government quarter buildings and holding those buildings, not a part of the fighting front). remnants of the LW Field divisions, the 11th Panzer Div, and the Muncheburg Pz Div. ( infantry is 4-6-7 with 6 broken side ML. Tanks are few and scattered, low on fuel, low on special ammunition types. Other AFVs half-tracks, armored cars make some appearance here. Remember the "panzer reserve" for Sector Z was HauptsturmFurher Dier's Tiger and a JgPz IV). The remnants of 6th SS PzGrDiv "Nord" 6-5-8 and 4-4-7 SS troops with all abilities of the SS troops vs Russians. These teams were rarely more than a platoon in vicinity of each other. Used for stiffening the line).Remnants of the 34th Div der Waffen SS "Nederland" ( a mall proportion, identified by the Russians as no larger than a company-sized kampfgruppe, which held up the initial advances towards the Anhalter Station and Mockern Bridge. designed as the at start 6 x 6-5-8 and 4 x 4-4-7 SS troops in the CG V), the SS LAH security detachment ( a single SS 2-4-8 pair of HS, must begin set up in the Reich Chancellery and the VorBunker - 1 each. May not leave these locations - unless certain optional rules were in play). The Chancellery garage detachment ( a Wilkenfjoord Armored car and a Opel Blitz Truck with a 7-0 SMC - must begin parked behind the Reich Chancellery garage. May only move if LOS exists to ta KEU. There were other vehicles in the garage, including a SPW 250/1 HT, but their fuel tanks had been drained to put the armored car and Dier's panzer reserve back in action). The remnants of the 9th LW Fj Division ( 5-4-8s and 4-4-7s treated as Allied Troops by any non - FJ SMC.)
(1)-0-6 German civilians willing to fight rather than surrender to the Russians The game rpovides a total of 6 of these counters, which can be raised one per special building entered by Russian units. Wallonien Brigade SS PzGr Anti-tank teams ( 3-3-8 HS with PF availability benefits, immune to PAATC and a -1 CCV DRM.)

Very few , units given as German self- rally capable. those that are consist only of the SMCs and the crew counters. No squads or HS receive that benefit.

Now who knows hoe f$%ked up Ray Tapio made the "reprints" each one seemed to be a different proofing / play test copy of the rules ,rather than any attempt to make anything "different".

suffice to say, you won't see Germans self- rallying much in the Berlin module under devlopment as described elsewhere on the forums.

 

[aiabx]

Outside of Berlin, accounts I hear of HJ troops would lead me to classify them as 4-3-6s with an ELR of 0 or 1. Scared, untrained kids sent out to die, but still capable of doing some harm.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Outside of Berlin, accounts I hear of HJ troops would lead me to classify them as 4-3-6s with an ELR of 0 or 1. Scared, untrained kids sent out to die, but still capable of doing some harm.

Great summary.

I think though, that they were oblivious to how untrained they were, and not afraid of dying the way a 25 year old American reaching the end of the war would have been. The U.S. soldier was well fed, knew his family back home was untouched by the war, and that he only had to stick it out a little while longer. The HJ kid was basically brainwashed, may well have had no home to go back to, and terrified at the prospect of living enslaved by bestial enemies.

So - sent out to die, yes, but in some cases perhaps even happy to do so.

It's a tough one, and a great question, Alan. I wonder if Battlefield Integrity wouldn't be the answer to portraying a western Allied force fighting them. After the first few casualties, I think a British or American force would tend to back off - can't think of a better way to portray this casualty consciousness than BI?

 

[Alan Hume]

I'd say which one you choose would depend entirely on how well they performed in the actual battle. There's no specifically designated squad type for HJ troops, and I believe they've been represented by both 4-4-7 and 4-3-6 squad types in various official scenarios.[/QUOTE

Thanks, that's good advice. For the most part I know they put up a really good fight (the unit in general anyhow) Peter White says (in 'With the Jocks') that " One could not help but admire the desperate stand these SS were putting up. he has them identified as "a formation of SS battleschool cadets from a training centre in Hanover, though it seems to be that they were Instructors, officers and NCO's from the Bergen Battleschool just outside Hanover, led by SS and that there was Hitler youth fighting too, in fact, the local village civilians were involved in the fighting too at one point in the battle, not in the woods but in their village, I guess they must have been pressganged by the SS or Nazi party officials or something ) and every reference I have found, either online or in my ROyal Scots books pretty much says they were fanatics (I've only really found one good source online though, from the BBC) again White says " There was some doubt as to wether the ridge was quite clear of the enemy, whom it was reported had offered fanatical resistance to the dawn attacks - as we had suspected from the racket " and again "but they're stuck against maniacs it seems"

 

[Alan Hume]

Thanks for the heads up Jon, appreciated.
the half-squad anti-tank fusilier teams sound interesting
no real mention of panzerfaust teams in anything I've read of this battle, s

I stand corrected, the British tanks (of 11th Armoured Div BEFORE they left the area, 7th Armd had already swept past) were held back outside the wooded hills because of not just the difficult terrain but also the threat of panzerfausts WHite again "There was a complete stalemate so far. Our tanks could not get through the wooded hills... without exposing themsleves to panzerfaust infantry anti-tank weapons at close range"

 

[Alan Hume]

Mark Porterfield gave them as 4-2-7s with NO ability to self-rally, and not fanatic, they were originally immune to PAATC if stacked with a HY leader.

Given the depth of research I have done into Berlin 1945 since 2014, I can with confidence say that giving the HY units any fanatic benefits in regular fighting in the city is a bit of an over reach, to put it lightly.

The men and boys who held at Himmler's House, the Kroll Opera House, the Reichstag, the RSHA, Reich Air Ministry, and Potsdamer and Anhalter stations ( just to cover sector Z) fought fanatically and with desperation to avoid becmoing Russian prisoners. Mark Porterfield gave units in those locations fanatic benefits, not the units themselves.

The mish-mash that defended greater Berlin in late April 1945 consisted of levees of Volksturm ( 4-3-6 with a 5 ML broken and a +4 DRM to any HOB); levees of LW anti-aircraft crews (1-2-7 self rally crews with a fair number of 88mm; 40mm; and 20mm guns. While manning a Gun - they would be fanatic - but against ground targets suffer an additional +1 DRM To hit or a +1 IFE DRM, and lower ROF by 1 for the Gun. They were used to fighting their gun in an elevated position for long spans of combat without taking shelter. Ground use was a different creature, however.) The surviving forces that had arrived from the Seelow / Oder river line battles and were nothing more than small platoons or ad hoc companies ( 4-4-7s). The Hitler Youth mustered to fight (4-2-7 with no PAATC when stacked with a HY leader, 2-2-6 HY anti-tank teams with -1 drms for PF availability. Treated as Allied troops under command of a leader not from the HY). The radicalized Nazi guards of the RSHA, the Reich Chancellery, and Lehrterstrasse Prison. ( 4-3-7s that can only be influenced by Nazi leaders, who act as Commissars for those troops. Small units up to two platoon size, scattered across government quarter buildings and holding those buildings, not a part of the fighting front). remnants of the LW Field divisions, the 11th Panzer Div, and the Muncheburg Pz Div. ( infantry is 4-6-7 with 6 broken side ML. Tanks are few and scattered, low on fuel, low on special ammunition types. Other AFVs half-tracks, armored cars make some appearance here. Remember the "panzer reserve" for Sector Z was HauptsturmFurher Dier's Tiger and a JgPz IV). The remnants of 6th SS PzGrDiv "Nord" 6-5-8 and 4-4-7 SS troops with all abilities of the SS troops vs Russians. These teams were rarely more than a platoon in vicinity of each other. Used for stiffening the line).Remnants of the 34th Div der Waffen SS "Nederland" ( a mall proportion, identified by the Russians as no larger than a company-sized kampfgruppe, which held up the initial advances towards the Anhalter Station and Mockern Bridge. designed as the at start 6 x 6-5-8 and 4 x 4-4-7 SS troops in the CG V), the SS LAH security detachment ( a single SS 2-4-8 pair of HS, must begin set up in the Reich Chancellery and the VorBunker - 1 each. May not leave these locations - unless certain optional rules were in play). The Chancellery garage detachment ( a Wilkenfjoord Armored car and a Opel Blitz Truck with a 7-0 SMC - must begin parked behind the Reich Chancellery garage. May only move if LOS exists to ta KEU. There were other vehicles in the garage, including a SPW 250/1 HT, but their fuel tanks had been drained to put the armored car and Dier's panzer reserve back in action). The remnants of the 9th LW Fj Division ( 5-4-8s and 4-4-7s treated as Allied Troops by any non - FJ SMC.)
(1)-0-6 German civilians willing to fight rather than surrender to the Russians The game rpovides a total of 6 of these counters, which can be raised one per special building entered by Russian units. Wallonien Brigade SS PzGr Anti-tank teams ( 3-3-8 HS with PF availability benefits, immune to PAATC and a -1 CCV DRM.)

Very few , units given as German self- rally capable. those that are consist only of the SMCs and the crew counters. No squads or HS receive that benefit.

Now who knows hoe f$%ked up Ray Tapio made the "reprints" each one seemed to be a different proofing / play test copy of the rules ,rather than any attempt to make anything "different".

suffice to say, you won't see Germans self- rallying much in the Berlin module under devlopment as described elsewhere on the forums.

Thanks for the information, very much appreciated. I have to admit that I think it's fair to make them fanatic in this case though (and give the SS leaders Commisar SSR's)

Wonder if I should make them 'Allied Troops' in the SSR though as they were under SS command here

not sure if I should give the Germans low ammo either as, White again, says they were'nt fired at unless they went into the woods as he thought they were conserving ammo

 

[Alan Hume]

Outside of Berlin, accounts I hear of HJ troops would lead me to classify them as 4-3-6s with an ELR of 0 or 1. Scared, untrained kids sent out to die, but still capable of doing some harm.

hmm, I would have to seperate them from the Hanover Battle School if I was going to give them a different ELR, not sure if I want to do that though

 

[Alan Hume]

It's a tough one, and a great question, Alan. I wonder if Battlefield Integrity wouldn't be the answer to portraying a western Allied force fighting them. After the first few casualties, I think a British or American force would tend to back off - can't think of a better way to portray this casualty consciousness than BI?

Thanks Michael, have to admit that's a rule I haven't actually come across yet (still working my way through the rulebook, so either I've missed it or I haven't read it yet) it would make sense right enough

 

[Paul M. Weir]

While apparently some versions of CH's Berlin job make much use of the "Allied Troops" rule, I doubt that would be appropriate for most situations.

I could understand some problems dealing with allied (Italian, Hungarian, etc) units or even some of the mixed bags of 'volunteers' that the SS hoovered up from German speakers resident outside Germany (the so called Volksdeutsche), I can't really see a problem when dealing with German citizens. I would imagine a lead migraine or suspended sentence (hemp or piano wire, your choice) would quickly sort out any miscommunication.

Don't forget you have another possibility, the Hungarians. With 537*, 447, 347, 336 and 526* (* = in FB only). So if you want to represent brave but unskilled HJ, then you might consider 347 that can ERL up or down. In addition you will have no problem distinguishing the HJ from other German units if you wish to give them a different ERL, which to my mind seems like a reasonable game design possibility.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Thanks Michael, have to admit that's a rule I haven't actually come across yet (still working my way through the rulebook, so either I've missed it or I haven't read it yet) it would make sense right enough

It's in Chapter A, and marked with an asterisk making it one of the optional rules, because of the complexity/bookkeeping burden it adds to the game.

 

[WuWei]

In "Small Boys, Big Guns", I use 2-3-6 conscript halfsquads for HJ volunteers, with ELR 0, and by SSR, they automatically become fanatic when they roll HoB.

 

[Alan Hume]

While apparently some versions of CH's Berlin job make much use of the "Allied Troops" rule, I doubt that would be appropriate for most situations.

I could understand some problems dealing with allied (Italian, Hungarian, etc) units or even some of the mixed bags of 'volunteers' that the SS hoovered up from German speakers resident outside Germany (the so called Volksdeutsche), I can't really see a problem when dealing with German citizens. I would imagine a lead migraine or suspended sentence (hemp or piano wire, your choice) would quickly sort out any miscommunication.

Don't forget you have another possibility, the Hungarians. With 537*, 447, 347, 336 and 526* (* = in FB only). So if you want to represent brave but unskilled HJ, then you might consider 347 that can ERL up or down. In addition you will have no problem distinguishing the HJ from other German units if you wish to give them a different ERL, which to my mind seems like a reasonable game design possibility.

oops, yeah, you have a point about the Allied Troops SSR, yeah, they are all German so I guess it really shouldn't apply here (and the threat of death would be pretty explicit I guess with the SS around) interesting options with the FB counters, have to think about that
probably just stick to German counters but it;s worth considering for sure