Alan Hume
Elder Member
Aside from limited ammo and the inexperienced crew penalty (do I have to apply that as an SSR?) is there any other way I can reduce the overall devastatingness of the Russian gun?
What counter to use for Hitler Youth
- Thread starter Alan Hume
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Alan Hume
Elder Member
thinking on some more of what you said Jon as regards the Hitler youth being treated as
'ALLIED TROOPS'
How about this as an SSR
5. All German leaders are SS and affect all German units, excepting Hitler Youth (who are represented by German 4-3-6 squads), as if a Commissar. Hitler Youth are treated as Allied Troops (A10.7)
though given that ALL Germans are fanatic I don't know how well that would work
(unless I make the Hitler youth not fanatic, but I kind of would have thought that they especially would be)
'ALLIED TROOPS'
How about this as an SSR
5. All German leaders are SS and affect all German units, excepting Hitler Youth (who are represented by German 4-3-6 squads), as if a Commissar. Hitler Youth are treated as Allied Troops (A10.7)
though given that ALL Germans are fanatic I don't know how well that would work
(unless I make the Hitler youth not fanatic, but I kind of would have thought that they especially would be)
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Alan Hume
Elder Member
hmmm, not sure that the guns (or the gun crews) came from the training school though
this bit from the BBC webpage doesn't mention any guns
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/65/a2289765.shtml
Doctor Wolf Berlin, now nearing eighty, was a young soldier stationed at Bergen, north of Hannover, where together with Officers and Trainee Officers and NCOs from their School near Hannover, they were instructed to march overnight for each night between 24th March and 1st April 1945, a distance of approximately 200 km, carrying all their weapons, food and ammunition to assist in the defence of the town of Ibbenburen, north of the Riesenbecker Ridge of the Teutoburger Wald.
After this exhausting journey, the group comprising about 3000 men circumnavigated to the North of Ibbenburen and finally approached the Western end of the Teutoburger Wald. They then followed the forest paths and approached the top of the Riesenbecker Ridge where they joined up with others and were able to observe the British forces assembled on the South side of the Wald.
would have been pretty impossible to move guns without transport I'm guessing
the guncrews (and the Hitleryouth) must have been some of the 'others' that they joined up wtih I guess
White says 300 men not 3000 too
this bit from the BBC webpage doesn't mention any guns
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/65/a2289765.shtml
Doctor Wolf Berlin, now nearing eighty, was a young soldier stationed at Bergen, north of Hannover, where together with Officers and Trainee Officers and NCOs from their School near Hannover, they were instructed to march overnight for each night between 24th March and 1st April 1945, a distance of approximately 200 km, carrying all their weapons, food and ammunition to assist in the defence of the town of Ibbenburen, north of the Riesenbecker Ridge of the Teutoburger Wald.
After this exhausting journey, the group comprising about 3000 men circumnavigated to the North of Ibbenburen and finally approached the Western end of the Teutoburger Wald. They then followed the forest paths and approached the top of the Riesenbecker Ridge where they joined up with others and were able to observe the British forces assembled on the South side of the Wald.
would have been pretty impossible to move guns without transport I'm guessing
the guncrews (and the Hitleryouth) must have been some of the 'others' that they joined up wtih I guess
White says 300 men not 3000 too
witchbottles
Forum Guru
Fair enough. I thought it was an innovative idea though.
witchbottles
Forum Guru
I did also..
Heavy AA guns in German service:
First German guns.
8.8 cm SK C/30. A German naval AA gun, might be found near naval bases or in coastal fortifications. It would be roughly a a L/42. Slightly lower velocity than the FlaK 18, but still would be a "L" gun. A big question of whether it would have much AP ammo. The Germans, like the Soviets, produced AP ammo for as many guns as was practical. I would tentatively suggest AP TK of 17.
8.8 cm FlaK 18 L/56. THE 88. As per the existing 88L counter. The FlaK 36 and 37 were product improvements, mainly a barrel liner made in 3 pieces (1 for the FlaK 18), improved AA fire control linkages and improved detachable wheel bogies. About 20k of all sub types produced.
8.8 cm FlaK 41 L/71. A new Rheinmetall gun with bigger chamber and longer barrel to combat higher flying aircraft. Some reliability issues, including fired cartridge extraction. Despite the same specifications, it did not evolve into the PaK 43, that was based upon a rival Krupp parallel development. Only 500-600 produced.
10.5 cm FlaK 38/39. While firing a heavier shell, its AA performance not much better than the FlaK 18. 4k produced.
12.8 cm FlaK 40. A definite improvement on the FlaK 18. About 1k produced along with 30-50 twin versions. Like the FlaK 41, the PaK version (mounted on the JgTiger) was a rival gun.
Only the FlaK 18 saw more than trivial field service. The rest were retained in Germany due to reliability (FlaK 41) or sheer weight and size (10.5 & 12.8 cm).
British:
3" 20 cwt (hundredweight), a WW1 76.2 mm gun (76* in ASL, see Chapter H notes) that was the main field heavy AA gun for the first half of the war at least. This was the main heavy AA gun that saw service in France (~120). Used in the Churchill 3" Gun Carrier, a British 'StuG' that was kept at home.
3.7", a 94mm replacement for the 3". Initially most were issued for home defence and places like Malta. Eventually replaced the 3" by '42 except in the Far East. Wiki states that 48 were in France in '40.
Both guns suffered in that they were designed as dedicated AA guns and difficult to use against tanks due to their aimers' layout, though the 3.7" was successfully used for indirect barrage work later in the war.
Soviet:
Both the earlier 76.2mm and later 85mm guns were captured in decent numbers. Small numbers of 85mm may have been rebored to fire German 8.8cm (L/56) ammo.
All the captured weapons tended to be used closer to their originator countries, eg British guns in the West, Soviet guns in the East. The Soviet guns were commonly retained by the capturing unit due to their utility rather than being turned in. As far as I know the Germans manufactured some some ammo for the British 3.7" and Soviet 85mm.
There were small numbers of other minor or German allied nations, but these would have relied upon captured ammo stocks.
The most useful AA guns that the Germans took over were the various 40mm Bofors, which were used by Poland and Hungary in good numbers and small number by others. The Soviet 37mm was almost its equal and also liked. There was less opportunity to capture large numbers of British or US Bofors, most being retained by the capturing unit, but they still added to the numbers. We need the Bofors in German blue as an official counter (1 in LFT's Operation Chariot).
First German guns.
8.8 cm SK C/30. A German naval AA gun, might be found near naval bases or in coastal fortifications. It would be roughly a a L/42. Slightly lower velocity than the FlaK 18, but still would be a "L" gun. A big question of whether it would have much AP ammo. The Germans, like the Soviets, produced AP ammo for as many guns as was practical. I would tentatively suggest AP TK of 17.
8.8 cm FlaK 18 L/56. THE 88. As per the existing 88L counter. The FlaK 36 and 37 were product improvements, mainly a barrel liner made in 3 pieces (1 for the FlaK 18), improved AA fire control linkages and improved detachable wheel bogies. About 20k of all sub types produced.
8.8 cm FlaK 41 L/71. A new Rheinmetall gun with bigger chamber and longer barrel to combat higher flying aircraft. Some reliability issues, including fired cartridge extraction. Despite the same specifications, it did not evolve into the PaK 43, that was based upon a rival Krupp parallel development. Only 500-600 produced.
10.5 cm FlaK 38/39. While firing a heavier shell, its AA performance not much better than the FlaK 18. 4k produced.
12.8 cm FlaK 40. A definite improvement on the FlaK 18. About 1k produced along with 30-50 twin versions. Like the FlaK 41, the PaK version (mounted on the JgTiger) was a rival gun.
Only the FlaK 18 saw more than trivial field service. The rest were retained in Germany due to reliability (FlaK 41) or sheer weight and size (10.5 & 12.8 cm).
British:
3" 20 cwt (hundredweight), a WW1 76.2 mm gun (76* in ASL, see Chapter H notes) that was the main field heavy AA gun for the first half of the war at least. This was the main heavy AA gun that saw service in France (~120). Used in the Churchill 3" Gun Carrier, a British 'StuG' that was kept at home.
3.7", a 94mm replacement for the 3". Initially most were issued for home defence and places like Malta. Eventually replaced the 3" by '42 except in the Far East. Wiki states that 48 were in France in '40.
Both guns suffered in that they were designed as dedicated AA guns and difficult to use against tanks due to their aimers' layout, though the 3.7" was successfully used for indirect barrage work later in the war.
Soviet:
Both the earlier 76.2mm and later 85mm guns were captured in decent numbers. Small numbers of 85mm may have been rebored to fire German 8.8cm (L/56) ammo.
All the captured weapons tended to be used closer to their originator countries, eg British guns in the West, Soviet guns in the East. The Soviet guns were commonly retained by the capturing unit due to their utility rather than being turned in. As far as I know the Germans manufactured some some ammo for the British 3.7" and Soviet 85mm.
There were small numbers of other minor or German allied nations, but these would have relied upon captured ammo stocks.
The most useful AA guns that the Germans took over were the various 40mm Bofors, which were used by Poland and Hungary in good numbers and small number by others. The Soviet 37mm was almost its equal and also liked. There was less opportunity to capture large numbers of British or US Bofors, most being retained by the capturing unit, but they still added to the numbers. We need the Bofors in German blue as an official counter (1 in LFT's Operation Chariot).
Alan Hume
Elder Member
Thanks Jon, that would make sense, guess they should be under 'Allied Troops' as well then
Alan Hume
Elder Member
yeah, it was
Alan Hume
Elder Member
okay, changed the SSR again to cover the Luftwaffe gun crew
5. All German leaders are SS and affect all German units, excepting Hitler Youth (who are represented by German 4-3-6 squads) and Luftwaffe gun crews (represented by 1-2-7 crew), as if a Commissar. Hitler Youth and Luftwaffe gun crew are treated as Allied Troops (A10.7)
I should tehnically have 2 guns in this scenario but I reckon that would just be overkill
so I'm just going to stick with 1 I guess
5. All German leaders are SS and affect all German units, excepting Hitler Youth (who are represented by German 4-3-6 squads) and Luftwaffe gun crews (represented by 1-2-7 crew), as if a Commissar. Hitler Youth and Luftwaffe gun crew are treated as Allied Troops (A10.7)
I should tehnically have 2 guns in this scenario but I reckon that would just be overkill
so I'm just going to stick with 1 I guess
witchbottles
Forum Guru
The Guns may or may not be an issue. If you have 28 squads in action per side ( based on a troops strength of 300 men), a platoon of 5 supporting tanks, and OBA and air support then two guns would be hardly noticeable.
No idea the parameters of your OBs, but choosing between 1 and 2 guns will likely hinge on the number of troops on both sides in play.
witchbottles
Forum Guru
well the FlaK 128 twin mounts in the three flak towers of Berlin saw extensive use over the course of a week from 25 April to 2 May, 1945
Alan Hume
Elder Member
thanks Paul, a looooot of good info there, appreciated
so, realistically, you would expect them maybe to have captured BRITISH guns if anything
but, surely if that was the case, the books would have said they were BRITISH guns, they would have known I guess, I dunno, difficult one
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Alan Hume
Elder Member
Got 2 British Companies (about 20 squads) facing off against about 15 German squads
so, hopefully it won't make too much of a difference, they're not going to get many lines of sight anyhow I guess (although historically they overlooked everything)
witchbottles
Forum Guru
how about an OBA with scarce ammo then ?
Alan Hume
Elder Member
Yeah, think that woudl be about right for sure
Course, now I've got a new problem, VICTORY CONDITIONS, thinking, seeing as how the Brits have to clear the ridge, that there should be no good order German multiman counters present on one half of the board or suchlike, but, maybe, that is too difficult for the British too achieve
what do you think?
witchbottles
Forum Guru
the basic fallback is K.I.S.S. keep it simple.
consider the ridge, and what key hexes of that ridgeline would give a unit commanding LOS over the immediate area - then simply get your VCs to read "Scottish must control hexes X5, V5 and P8 ( or whatever you deem to be the critical points of the ridge) by game end."
If you like ,add in a "In addition, the Scottish player must possess at least 5 squad-equivalents of prisoners by game end."
Then you can tinker balance by simply adjusting prisoners and/or commanding terrain locations accordingly.
Alan Hume
Elder Member
Thanks Jon,
that helps a lot, it really does, gives me something to go with
I probably won't bother with the prisoners, as, historically, there weren't many taken unfortunately (the Germans fought to the last pretty much)
although, saying that, there is also written references to prisoners so clearly not all of them did (and there were other German survivors I guess such as the Dr who is quoted on the BBC website)
Michael Dorosh
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I think you need to ask your playtesters these questions...
Alan Hume
Elder Member
Yep, that's true enough, I'm going to roll with Jon's idea though for the minute and see where it takes me
Hate to say it but I need to find yet more cash, would like to see the 6th HLI view of this fight
and there are 4 volumes of regimental history available, only vol 4 is WW2 though luckily
but while it's cheap for a Regimental history it's still over £40
darn, I think it would be a good buy though as it would be more grist for the mill anyhow and, hopefully, it might cover this battle with some info I don't have