Tournament Purpose

[hongkongwargamer]

There's something strangely interesting about ASL tourneys, where grown men share weekends together, share full days of highly collaborative imagination, cumulating with jovial feasting and drinking in the evenings. For some of us they are annual get togethers, as we collectively march towards an age when remaining opportunities to do so becomes sadly finite.

 

[TopT]

Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of the women! -Conan

O'Brien?!?

 

[Sparafucil3]

There's something strangely interesting about ASL tourneys, where grown men share weekends together, share full days of highly collaborative imagination, cumulating with jovial feasting and drinking in the evenings. For some of us they are annual get togethers, as we collectively march towards an age when remaining opportunities to do so becomes sadly finite.

We are a bunch of kids playing with Green Army soldiers. I hope that never changes. -- jim

 

[Stewart]

Only one comment on the competition and AREA.
If you are involved in the competition of the tournament, no bullshit hidden AREA rating.
If you participate, you reveal to the players. Competitive players should know what you are capable of.
One sided hiding that, regardless if YOU think it's important or not, isn't FAIR to the players.
Assume no one knows you, include the ones that don't care.... Knowing ratings invariably leads to what your opponent can expect from your play.

If you are attending for fun... Play pickup games.

I dislike the catering to a miniscule number of players.
Since those players that play for fun... Don't need to be involved or don't care what they're rating is (unlikely since it's hidden) then don't participate in the actual competition.

 

[Sparafucil3]

Only one comment on the competition and AREA.
If you are involved in the competition of the tournament, no bullshit hidden AREA rating.
If you participate, you reveal to the players. Competitive players should know what you are capable of.
One sided hiding that, regardless if YOU think it's important or not, isn't FAIR to the players.
Assume no one knows you, include the ones that don't care.... Knowing ratings invariably leads to what your opponent can expect from your play.

If you are attending for fun... Play pickup games.

You remember you have me on "ignore" right?

At Copenhagen all player ratings were on display for anyone to see.

Personally, your play tells me what I can expect from your play. That starts with me looking at your setup, seeing how you move, seeing how you use cover and concealment, do you know simple things like 8 on the 8, do you know your TH mods, etc. I mean, how can I trust the ratings when you yourself say you know of people are sandbagging the ratings? I don't need no stinking ratings. I believe what I see with my eyes. -- jim

EDIT to add: Your OP did not seek commentary on AREA. Also, I commented on the "purpose of tournaments" for me. If you wanted commentary on the competition/AREA, clarify your question perhaps.

 

[asloser]

You remember you have me on "ignore" right?

At Copenhagen all player ratings were on display for anyone to see.

Personally, your play tells me what I can expect from your play. That starts with me looking at your setup, seeing how you move, seeing how you use cover and concealment, do you know simple things like 8 on the 8, do you know your TH mods, etc. I mean, how can I trust the ratings when you yourself say you know of people are sandbagging the ratings? I don't need no stinking ratings. I believe what I see with my eyes. -- jim

EDIT to add: Your OP did not seek commentary on AREA. Also, I commented on the "purpose of tournaments" for me. If you wanted commentary on the competition/AREA, clarify your question perhaps.

To turn this discussion around I do not need AREA to tell me what I am as a player. - I know I am good enough to give anyone a good and challenging game. But I also know that I am not as good as the top guns are. And I will never be as I just do not have the personal qualities for that.

 

[Actionjick]

What is the purpose of asking what an individual thinks is the purpose? It's a question that makes sense if you are planning on hosting an event but otherwise inconsequential.

The attendees' purposes and that of the TD's need not be the same.

I prefer the term event over tournament. YMMV depending on your purpose.

 

[Stewart]

To turn this discussion around I do not need AREA to tell me what I am as a player. - I know I am good enough to give anyone a good and challenging game. But I also know that I am not as good as the top guns are. And I will never be as I just do not have the personal qualities for that.

So why would you hide your rating? You seem to be content with the knowledge you will never rank that high. Too bad others can't accept reality.

 

[Chris_Riches]

I think a number of the replies here make it self-evident why a number of us do not participate in tournaments.

To answer the question: I enjoy good, competitive games, and I would like to enjoy these at an event without the over-focus on winning that can occur in these forums.

Amongst us we have different perspectives on this, and having some understanding of others’ point of view can be helpful; there is no one ‘right’ answer here.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

I think a number of the replies here make it self-evident why a number of us do not participate in tournaments.

To answer the question: I enjoy good, competitive games, and I would like to enjoy these at an event without the over-focus on winning that can occur in these forums.

Amongst us we have different perspectives on this, and having some understanding of others’ point of view can be helpful; there is no one ‘right’ answer here.

I think it's a function of WHO you play against vs whether it's a tournament. I have seen some of the best players in the world who (are most often) the most pleasant folks to play against.

Plus folks do go to tournament to play pickup games. The whole "tournament" thing is an excuse to get away once or twice every year to play ASL all weekend

 

[Robin Reeve]

I think a number of the replies here make it self-evident why a number of us do not participate in tournaments.

To answer the question: I enjoy good, competitive games, and I would like to enjoy these at an event without the over-focus on winning that can occur in these forums.

Amongst us we have different perspectives on this, and having some understanding of others’ point of view can be helpful; there is no one ‘right’ answer here.

I rather have seen here an overwhelming number of answers relativizing the objective of winning.
"Over-focus on winning" at tournaments is not the main tread of this thread, and I would suggest that you took part in one, while putting aside that wrong impression.

You will meet the occasional player obsessed by winning, of course; but I think that you will, even out of the context of a tourney.
Usually, such people tend to have a rather lonely life.

And, from what I have read of the top notch players, they certainly don't fit into that category of persons.

 

[Sparafucil3]

So why would you hide your rating? You seem to be content with the knowledge you will never rank that high. Too bad others can't accept reality.

I have told you why before but I will repeat it here: when the DC Conscripts had a ladder with ratings people at the top stopped playing people well below them. The math of the system says the "reward parts" were minimal for winning and fairly large for losing. People became obsessed with their ratings and standings and play came to halt. When a new group of leaders came in we scrapped the ladder and suddenly everyone was playing again. So I hide my rating because I am fundamentally against the system. I allow the system to keep my rating because I like to attend tournaments where ratings are needed for determining the pairing. I allow the system to keep my rating so people who like to see where they stand can have the points they "deserver" when they win or lose against me. This allows me to personally opt out of the system while making sure TD's and other players can still count their games against me. It's win - win for everyone.

Hiding my rating isn't about accepting reality. I know I am pretty good player who lacks some consistency. I have won a tournament, many mini's at ASLOk, I finished third at ASLOk in the Grofaz. That's reality. I will always be opposed to ladders and ratings because my experience tells me they stifle play. JMO, YMMV (Which is why I am flexible enough to work with you allow us both to have what we want and not force my opinion on you. Too bad more people aren't so cocksure of themselves to think theirs is the only opinion that matters). -- jim

 

[Sparafucil3]

I think a number of the replies here make it self-evident why a number of us do not participate in tournaments.

To answer the question: I enjoy good, competitive games, and I would like to enjoy these at an event without the over-focus on winning that can occur in these forums.

Amongst us we have different perspectives on this, and having some understanding of others’ point of view can be helpful; there is no one ‘right’ answer here.

I have played more tournament games than I can remember. I have only ever played one game with a guy so obsessed with winning it got the better of him. Other people have had the same experience and he was approached about how his sportsmanship changes and some of the things he does. He thanked them and has worked hard to be better. He can still fall off the wagon, no one is perfect, but he is much more pleasant to play today.

Me personally, I know I can become pretty exasperated by slow play or when fortune is running against me. I struggle to keep my "inner bitchiness" from surfacing. If I am losing that battle, I know it makes me un-fun to play so I will abandon such a game. It's part of the reason my play is un-even. There are games that I can win but I would rather lose the game than have someone have an unpleasant playing experience. -- jim

 

[Stewart]

Let's look at the definition.
1. (in a sport or game) a series of contests between a number of competitors, who compete for an overall prize.

So, a label of Tournament suggests there is competition (compete-strive to gain or win something by defeating or establishing superiority over others who are trying to do the same.)

If we are to assume most players are attending tournaments to have FUN and winning is irrelevant. Then we can conclude that its not really a tournament after all.
Only those few, Usually the top players have ANY chance of winning, that come to compete actually are participating in a tournament.

Which leads us to the rest of the pack. Those that just want to have fun and socialize.
First of all, this is perfectly fine to show up for a Tournament and have fun and socialize...Many of the followers of this thread will completely disregard this comment as to fully attack the other statements.

The rest of the pack, having obtained the mentality of not actually seeing a tournament victory forego the STIFF competition and kinda just go through the motions, having fun all the while. Again, this is ok, but is NOT a tournament setting. It's more like Game Day attitude.

This leaves only the top 8-10 players (based on a 20-30 man tournament) that are actually participating in the Tournament as they are the only ones that have a REAL chance of victory. (Before you go on and say seed 20 won ASLOK ##...please include all the other data of most of all the other tournaments with a significance factor included.)

Given that this is the case. The top 8-10 players don't even really start competing amongst themselves until the 3rd+ round of a tournament...meaning the only competition they are up against only matters in 2 games at most.
The challenge of the tournament doesn't exist until later rounds. Now sure, this is a standard SPORTS format. But this is a game so esoteric that only old farts have come to enjoy...So, why not treat it differently??


Why not actually have a challenging tournament, where the TOP 1/2 compete for the TOP prize, and the bottom have Compete for a Secondary prize.
Both halves of players will likely be playing their peers and will have closer games overall (assuming scenarios are balanced) and THUS be having SO MUCH MORE FUN as the GAMES aren't decided Very early as they typically are vs uneven matches.
AND that the 2nd tier can actually obtain a championship in their division. (Plaques aren't that expensive) More players would leave satisfied than just happy to see their old buddies.

More FUN can be had by the 2nd set of competitors, Those that are there to have fun.
AND the TOP tier players will have a far more strenuous challenge to prove they are Champion material. They will have to win 4-5 challenging games. This will likely result in a greater variety of Tournament winners as they will be competing in more games with their peers than having a 2-3 round "BYE"

I'm not sure why this hasn't been adapted other than just "we've done this for 30yrs".
You can say..."Well, it's not a REAL tournament then"
You'd be correct...as 1/2 the players are there only to have fun as described by nearly all posts above and probably the rest of the readers of this thread....

WHY call it a TOURNAMENT when most of the participants aren't there to compete?

 

[Sparafucil3]

If we are to assume most players are attending tournaments to have FUN and winning is irrelevant. Then we can conclude that its not really a tournament after all.

Having fun and winning are not mutually exclusive. I am ashamed to admit this took me a lot longer to realize than it should have.

Only those few, Usually the top players have ANY chance of winning, that come to compete actually are participating in a tournament.

<SNIP>

Why not actually have a challenging tournament, where the TOP 1/2 compete for the TOP prize, and the bottom have Compete for a Secondary prize.
Both halves of players will likely be playing their peers and will have closer games overall (assuming scenarios are balanced) and THUS be having SO MUCH MORE FUN as the GAMES aren't decided Very early as they typically are vs uneven matches.
AND that the 2nd tier can actually obtain a championship in their division. (Plaques aren't that expensive) More players would leave satisfied than just happy to see their old buddies.

More FUN can be had by the 2nd set of competitors, Those that are there to have fun.
AND the TOP tier players will have a far more strenuous challenge to prove they are Champion material. They will have to win 4-5 challenging games. This will likely result in a greater variety of Tournament winners as they will be competing in more games with their peers than having a 2-3 round "BYE"

I'm not sure why this hasn't been adapted other than just "we've done this for 30yrs".
You can say..."Well, it's not a REAL tournament then"
You'd be correct...as 1/2 the players are there only to have fun as described by nearly all posts above and probably the rest of the readers of this thread....

WHY call it a TOURNAMENT when most of the participants aren't there to compete?

Because David beat Goliath.

Some tournaments take something akin to this approach allowing those knocked out of the main to enter into mini-tournaments. This depends on the type of tournament. If you're playing in one where the record of people you have played comes into bearing splitting people out of the main hurts people competing for the championship. If you're playing some sort of single elimination event then having some small mini tournaments for people to play in strikes this balanced nicely. Everyone has a chance to be David and when Goliath squashes them, they can continue to compete for something else if they chose. -- jim

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Because -

Anyone (including you, ALL of you) - can create tournaments/ game day/ game meets/ ASL orgies/ counter clipping carnivals in any format they like, and ....

Anyone - can call their little parties anything they dang well please.

It's time perhaps to realize, that this is not some sort of earth shattering business that contributes to the elevation of the human spirit.

It's time to see ASL for what it is (in Jim's words) .. we are just a bunch of kids playing with Green Army soldiers.

 

[Actionjick]

I think a number of the replies here make it self-evident why a number of us do not participate in tournaments.

To answer the question: I enjoy good, competitive games, and I would like to enjoy these at an event without the over-focus on winning that can occur in these forums.

Amongst us we have different perspectives on this, and having some understanding of others’ point of view can be helpful; there is no one ‘right’ answer here.

One can get a skewed view of tournaments from reading some opinions on the forum.

 

[Pip Smith]

"ASL orgies"

Been looking through the Events & Tournaments sub forum ... can't see any posted in there?
Are these advertised on a different forum?

 

[Honosbinda]

Let's identify some, but not all, of the silly and asinine remarks and call them out for what they are. There are more, this is just an indicative sample.

1) Jim about hiding his AREA rating: "This allows me to personally opt out of the system while making sure TD's and other players can still count their games against me. It's win - win for everyone."

nonsense. It would be a win-win if you conformed like everyone else. This is only a win for you and just the same for everyone else. Nice try, though.

2). HKW about child-like behaviors: "It's time to see ASL for what it is (in Jim's words) .. we are just a bunch of kids playing with Green Army soldiers."

ridiculous. Kids don't and can't read, understand and apply complex rules such as found in ASL when playing with green army soldiers. It takes a mature adult to comprehend the rules, then analyze and synthesize solutions when playing this game. By all means, though, you are welcome to go into your backyard and move your soldiers around and throw rocks at them pretend it's ASL you're playing.

3) AJ pretending to be above it all: "What is the purpose of asking what an individual thinks is the purpose?"

come on. Anybody can play that game. Here, I'll play too: AJ, what is the purpose of your question of asking about the OP's purpose?? yuk yuk. This could be endlessly comical but very boring.

I'm sure there is more to come. Have at it, boys (those who consider yourselves green army kids). heh.

 

[Sparafucil3]

Let's identify some, but not all, of the silly and asinine remarks and call them out for what they are. There are more, this is just an indicative sample.

1) Jim about hiding his AREA rating: "This allows me to personally opt out of the system while making sure TD's and other players can still count their games against me. It's win - win for everyone."

nonsense. It would be a win-win if you conformed like everyone else. This is only a win for you and just the same for everyone else. Nice try, though.

Also by me: (Which is why I am flexible enough to work with you allow us both to have what we want and not force my opinion on you. Too bad more people aren't so cocksure of themselves to think theirs is the only opinion that matters).

You clearly agreed with my position to some extent when you worked with Doug on that project given that was the outcome. -- jim

PS: The very definition of win-win is when all parties get what they want.