Tiger vs. Sherman

ASL Maineiac

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Great video from the Discovery Channel about the strategy used by the Allies to take out a Tiger with four Shermans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXZ7-MteFnw&feature=related
To tie this thread into ASL: Do people use tactics like the one talked about in this video in ASL? I'm a relative newbie and am just beginning to use AFVs in ASL. I still feel lost when it comes to armor tactics on the board.
 

Jazz

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Great video from the Discovery Channel about the strategy used by the Allies to take out a Tiger with four Shermans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXZ7-MteFnw&feature=related
To tie this thread into ASL: Do people use tactics like the one talked about in this video in ASL? I'm a relative newbie and am just beginning to use AFVs in ASL. I still feel lost when it comes to armor tactics on the board.
Not sure of the details of the actual strategy used in the real case, but in ASL it's called the Dance o' Death.

In essence, it involves presenting the Panther with successive targets during the American/British movement phase that forces the Panther in turn to change CA to present effectively imprevious armor to each Sherman at the dance in turn. Counting things up, The Panther has the following opportunities to change CA:

- MA
- MA intensive fire
-BMG
-CMG

After which, hopefully, the Panther is pointing his bum at one or more of the dancers that can still fire.

Factors that can give the dance a bit more texture and nuance.....

- ROF on the part of the Panther MA
- Gun duels
- Sherman ROF number on white background grants gun duel benefits as well as multiple hits (US Vehicle note R)
- Can you say "Gyros"? Sure you can....
- Slow turret on a Panther
- Large target Shermans
- A Stuart.....seems like a gnat that the big cat wants to ignore, but capable of taking out a Panther from the rear without being *that* lucky.
- Others I'm forgetting?
 
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Bret Hildebran

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- Others I'm forgetting?
Panzerfausts is the biggest omission as one would hope a competent German would give his big cats a little support at least. HD status is another complicating factor in many cases, but overall it was an excellent summary...

Well, you also forgot the fiery remains of the first Sherman to approach! :devious:
 

2 Bit Bill

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When asked which tank they'd rather be in, the Sherman or the Tiger, everybody chose the Tiger.
 

Jazz

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Well, you also forgot the fiery remains of the first Sherman to approach! :devious:
Only if he is so silly as to approach from where the kitty was pointed to begin with....which does happen....

Yeah, the close quarter capabilties of the German Landser of the period is a distinct consideration.....what an interesting game within a game the Dance'o Death is....
 

Bret Hildebran

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uh... how about that this was Tiger vs Sherman, not Panther vs Sherman?
Are you claiming your approach to killing a Tiger is fundamentally different w/a swarm of Shermans than trying to kill a Panther? If so, how/why?

Now if you were just razzing Jazz regarding his apparent inability to differentiate between big cats, well, uh, carry on then...
 
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Great video from the Discovery Channel about the strategy used by the Allies to take out a Tiger with four Shermans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXZ7-MteFnw&feature=related
To tie this thread into ASL: Do people use tactics like the one talked about in this video in ASL? I'm a relative newbie and am just beginning to use AFVs in ASL. I still feel lost when it comes to armor tactics on the board.

Doesn't seem like a very good strategy to me, loose three tanks and all their crews to take out one Tiger. I would've found another way.

I always try to use unconventional techniques when I'm up against an invincible vehicle, such as using smoke, staying out of its LOS, use infantry to close range & take it out with a BAZ, but it's strictly situational, have to look at the composition of forces (If I've got plenty of tanks to loose, I might go ahead & rush it). Russians usually have some tanks, like the KV, in which a frontal hit from a tiger is not a sure kill, sometimes I'll use KVs to deliberately immo the tiger (which I typicall do anyway with just about any vehicle that can).

Tactics thouth, it's really hard to say: a lot depends on force composition & board configuration (open vs blocked). Like Jazz said, force the tiger to turn its turret at moving targets (by alternating them as necessary .. move any acquired tank last) in order to minimize its hit chance. If it doesn't shoot and you can move adjacent, you'll be able to get a good bff shot at the side/rear with large target and adjacent or two hex range mods in your favor. If it does a motion attempt, you're just as well off, because it more than likely it won't hit as a motion firer, and at least one of your other tanks should have a good side/rear shot in its favor in the upcoming turn.
 

Jazz

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Doesn't seem like a very good strategy to me, loose three tanks and all their crews to take out one Tiger. I would've found another way.
True, but if I recall correctly, the real-world historical rule of thumb was that it generally it took 4-5 Shermans to take out a Big German Cat (of whatever variety)...and many if not most of the Shermans wouldn't be "runners" after all was said and done.

Good thing we had a lot of'em....
 

Rod Zombie

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True, but if I recall correctly, the real-world historical rule of thumb was that it generally it took 4-5 Shermans to take out a Big German Cat (of whatever variety)...and many if not most of the Shermans wouldn't be "runners" after all was said and done.

Good thing we had a lot of'em....
I have heard that 4-to-1 trade off many, many times. So much so that it is starting to sound a bit like a cliché.

Is it truly an "average" (I know you used the term "generally" Jazz, but many folks seem to take it as a dependable figure)? I know I have read some accounts where, if allowed to take advantage of its greater mobility, the Sherman could out maneuver the heavier German vehicles to the American advantage, and thereby end up not losing as many (or any) Shermans. Of course, terrain and experience are great equalizers almost regardless of the opponents.

I'm not nearly as well read as many of you are, so I would love to what the rest of you know on this topic. :)
 

Fort

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Tiger I is still the best looking tank ever built....hell, it's the best looking war machine, period.
 

Markdv5208

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The only question I'm left with....where did he get the little die cast models and can I get some of them (cheaply?) too?

Mark DV
Ada, MI
 

Jazz

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Is it truly an "average" (I know you used the term "generally" Jazz, but many folks seem to take it as a dependable figure)?
I always thought it was more a "rule of thumb" more than an average or general result?

Take a Big Cat, put it in the middle of Kansas with nothing else around, and "smart money" would go for needing 4-5 Shermans to kill it. Terrain, situation, experience, and luck all entering into it to make a horse race that would lure bets against the "smart money".
 

Jazz

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Tiger I is still the best looking tank ever built....hell, it's the best looking war machine, period.
I know it ain't a big'ole *TANK*, but I think the German SdKfz 251 family of half-tracks are about the coolest looking AFVs around.
 

Rod Zombie

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I always thought it was more a "rule of thumb" more than an average or general result?

Take a Big Cat, put it in the middle of Kansas with nothing else around, and "smart money" would go for needing 4-5 Shermans to kill it. Terrain, situation, experience, and luck all entering into it to make a horse race that would lure bets against the "smart money".
It would be hard to argue with that!

I am wondering though where that figure originated from. Does it come from any official source, or is it something that was sort of deduced now with the benefit of hindsight?

On the topic of best-looking vehicle: A business partner drove his SdKfz 222 to a convention in the Bay Area once to show off in the parking lot. I thought he was nuts, but he insisted that it was street legal (this was pre 9/11 and the guns were non-functioning, of course). Regardless, that was a pretty sexy looking vehicle. Another business partner likes the lines of a Hetzer. I also like how the Sherman looks, but then I like my women with a little meat on their bones. :yummy:
 

RobZagnut

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>Doesn't seem like a very good strategy to me, loose three tanks and all their crews to take out one Tiger.

Bruce's scenario Clash Along the Psel illustrates this very well. Get those Tigers hull-down in a wadis and mutually supporting each other and the Russian player is in for a long day.


>I would've found another way.

Easier said than done. If you can find it, I would like to see it.
 
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Jazz

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It would be hard to argue with that!
Oh, go ahead....where's the fun otherwise....?
:bite:

I am wondering though where that figure originated from. Does it come from any official source, or is it something that was sort of deduced now with the benefit of hindsight?
Good question. I'm not sure. A while ago, Pitman mentioned a monograph from the period that seemed to be a scholarly treatment concerning things such as average range of engagement etc.... Sounds like the sort of thing that might spawn such a figure? Could it be something as simple as comparing raw loss ratios?

On the topic of best-looking vehicle: A business partner drove his SdKfz 222 to a convention in the Bay Area once to show off in the parking lot.
Not enough seating....for all the babes it's sure to attract.
 
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