Russians at Stalingrad and ASL

[Oberst Balck]

Hi,

I never can understand why Russians cannot deply in RB or cannot deploy full stop. THEY were the ones who excelled at " sturm tactics" and about 3 pages in one of Zhukov's books or in any half good text explained the mop up proceedures very well.

With this in mind I believe all non conscript Russians should be allowed to deploy anytime they choose to attack and may deploy 10% of thier force before play begins.

The other thing is infiltration ( especialy at night) the Russians were the MASTERS of it and is fully acknowledged by many German generals.


New rules should be made for infiltration and I believe the best way is to allow Russians to retain ? at night while moving in LOS of an enemy unit unless lit up by a star shell,, or engage in CC or take a PIN or worse result.

This will give the Night Attack a whole new flavour and even day attacks will have more meaning and options for the Russians..... :bandit:

 

[Pitman]

Most Russian troops were not well trained enough to warrant giving them deployment capabilities. I could see an argument, perhaps, for elite Russian troops, but not others.

And I think the notion that they were "masters" of night attacks is not supportable. What appears to be the case (other nationalities fighting the Germans occasionally mentioned this as well) is simply that the Germans did not like to fight at night.

 

['Ol Fezziwig]

I never can understand why Russians cannot deply in RB or cannot deploy full stop. THEY were the ones who excelled at " sturm tactics" and about 3 pages in one of Zhukov's books or in any half good text explained the mop up proceedures very well.

Because they didn't behave like all the other nationalities in ASL. Play them as they are and adapt to what they can and cannot do. Russians shouldn't behave like Germans.
As for their storm tactics, IIRC, these were platoon-sized elements, not half-squad sized elements. Besides these half squads aren't going to provide offensive shock, they're going to pussy foot around playing the same old half squad games.

New rules should be made for infiltration and I believe the best way is to allow Russians to retain ? at night while moving in LOS of an enemy unit unless lit up by a star shell,, or engage in CC or take a PIN or worse result.

Why? Are they Supermen? Does being German have some sort of physiological disadvantage with regards to seeing in the dark? I'd dare say if this was adopted, the hue and cry would be deafening.What would PTO guys insist on for the Japanese? I suppose within a particular consenting group this is no big deal, but I wouldn't expect others outside the immediate fraternity to embrace this.
Besides, what's preventing the Russians from popping up all over at night via sewer movement? Or making a jittery German player shoot at scads of dummy cloaking and "?" counters? Or having them pop off starshells that blind themselves as opposed to helping see those sneaky Russians?
I daresay there's quite a bit of commendable historical research invested in ASL, the weak link tends to be in unimaginative players. (myself included in that, of course)

 

[ross]

Beating a dead horse I see...

With this in mind I believe all non conscript Russians should be allowed to deploy anytime they choose to attack and may deploy 10% of thier force before play begins.

Wasn't this idea already dismissed in this thread? http://server37.totalchoicehosting.com/~warforu/forums/showthread.php?t=26858

I like Jazz's answer best, when he says,

You can play it however you like among consenting adults. I like to play ASL though....

I wonder why you insist on rehashing this topic. Too much time on your hands? There is no need to tweak Red Barricades; it's awesome as-is.

 

[Jack Dionne]

Wasn't this idea already dismissed in this thread? http://server37.totalchoicehosting.com/~warforu/forums/showthread.php?t=26858

I like Jazz's answer best, when he says,

I wonder why you insist on rehashing this topic. Too much time on your hands? There is no need to tweak Red Barricades; it's awesome as-is.

For the most part RB is an excellent way to spend time but that damn ELR strategy still rubs me the wrong way.

 

[alanp]

think of some of your 30 or so Russian squads as half-squads; use Russian squads as you'd use German half-squads; heck, Russian "half-squads" even get to fire their ifp and a sw. . .

as I see it, besides being historically inaccurate, you'd have to change the OB of many Russian scenarios if you allow the Russians to freely deploy.

 

[McFinn]

For the most part RB is an excellent way to spend time but that damn ELR strategy still rubs me the wrong way.

Me too, IIRC some of the playtesters lobbied for the side with a 0 ELR not being able to select an attack chit (it was mentioned in the ASL Annual 90 I think).

Has any one played RB with this as a house rule? what were the results.


Oberst,

I think if you want any one to take the Russian HS idea seriously your going to have to provide some strong historical reasearch/cites that the russian "sturm groups" that were reguarly used were HS sized. (all I've read indicate they were platoon sized) All accounts I've read about 4-groups of 4-5 russians were always survivors of a much larger group.

And even then your proposing a big change to a basic (and commonly) used rule that's been in the ASL system for years.

Changing the night rules for just one nationality seems pretty far fetched. Again, I don't remember reading that any one nationality was able to use the night any more effectivly than another.

You are welcome to play any house rules you want. If you are proposing a change to the game rules based on historical accuracy you'd better be prepared to cite may sources/materials showing that the orginal rule is innaccurate if you expect the ASL public to be supportive of your proposed change.

 

[Bryan Holtby]

Me too, IIRC some of the playtesters lobbied for the side with a 0 ELR not being able to select an attack chit (it was mentioned in the ASL Annual 90 I think).

Has any one played RB with this as a house rule? what were the results?

Im currently involved in such a game as the German. While I generally dislike 'house rules' with a game as complicated as ASL, my opponent and I thought this would be a good counter to the ELR stratagy.

As it turns out, I have rolled exceptionally well when it came time to do ELR (not so exceptional on my CCP rolls however), thus I find myself beginning day 7 with an ELR of 4 and the Russians with an ELR of 2.

While I have always been very opinionated with regards to 'never pass' as the German, I knew my ELR would drop to 2 by day 7 if I didnt pass on Day6. The Russians had the crap beat out of them (4:1 loss ration in squads) on day 5 with an ELR of 1 and to add to the equation, the Germans can enter on the entire west side of the map on day 7 thus adding to the length of the front. Therefore Day 6 was for me the optimal day to pass. If my luck holds I can bash away for another 5 days before I run out of steam again.

The Russians have not had much luck except for my bad rolls that cost me 2 platoons of MKIII's to recall at the end of day 1 and day 2. Terrain fires have cost the Russian much ground, isolated Kindled blazes spread like wildfire on days 2 and 3. One such blaze spread so fast it handed me an entire factory! Torching the west edge 1st level buildings is a necessity, but I would limit my Kindling attempts to these buildings, the Commissars house and any other level 2 buildings only.

Anyways, back to my original point I dont think the 'no attack with ELR 0' house rule will help the Russians much in my current game, too many other things have gone wrong (severe bad luck on almost all CC rolls, constant red cards on OBA etc.) for this house rule to take an effect. That being said, Day 7 and likely Day 8 promise to be a real slugfest as my Germans try to cross open ground and Im not really looking forward to the prospect of 10 or so mined hexes my opponent is sure to use.

 

[Tater]

Me too, IIRC some of the playtesters lobbied for the side with a 0 ELR not being able to select an attack chit (it was mentioned in the ASL Annual 90 I think).

Is that the whole OB is ELR 0? The German 838's are always ELR 5 so as long as they have AE's they could pick attack chits.

 

[Jay White]

Is that the whole OB is ELR 0? The German 838's are always ELR 5 so as long as they have AE's they could pick attack chits.

Yeah, Tate, thats the sleaze that people (including myself) dislikes. The Germans can attack constantly; eventually everyones ELR will be zero except the german 838's who will rule the day. I _think_ thats the trick, at least.

-Jay

 

[Tater]

Yeah, Tate, thats the sleaze that people (including myself) dislikes. The Germans can attack constantly; eventually everyones ELR will be zero except the german 838's who will rule the day. I _think_ thats the trick, at least.

-Jay

...sleaze?...

Why is that sleaze? It is one possible strategy but I do not see it as a guarantee win. There are a lot of things that can go wrong.

It still requires that the German maintain his kill ratio. Also, you only get 8/ea (maybe only 6) of the 838's per purchase. The German probably needs at least 2 AE coy (maybe 3) at one time to make this work...that's 28 CPP (42?). He certainly can't afford to buy them set-up on board which means they have to march (or ride) to the frontline that first day...if you don't understand the significance of that then you don't need to be throwing the term "sleaze" around. If the Germ buys the AE on consecutive days he will have to forego pretty much any other purchases for 2 days (3?)...marching/riding to the front means that the fearsome AE assault will take 3-4 days to really get cranked up. During that 3-4 days the German is hanging on with 0 ELR troops.

Obviously, he certainly can't go idle to buy the 838's in reserve.

Sure, where ever the 838's are (eventually) attacking the Ruski is going to take it on the chin. However, those 12-16 (18-24?) 838's can't be everywhere. The German will have to cover his backside with 0 ELR troops. Not to mention that the 0 elr isn't a big deal for Ruskies in the factories due to being Fanatic.

Even in a best case scenario the German is going to take some casualties with those 838's acting as the spearhead. That means he will need to be prepared to buy additional 838's. Once the German starts buying the 838's he will begin to see a shift in the ratios of total numbers of squads as he will be buying 6-8 sqauds on days when the Ruski will be buying 24+. IOW, the act of buying the 838's may well force the German to take an idle day due to the numbers shift.

Lastly, the German could get bad ELR rolls while the Ruski gets lucky.

Regardless...I certainly don't consider it a "sleaze" and I see no reason to change the nature of the CG just to appeaze the over reaction of some players to an unproven strategy.

 

[Jay White]

you're right, "sleaze" is the wrong word. "strategy" is the correct word.

i don't like this strategy, cuz as the russians i wouldn't want to spend hundreds of hours playing RB without the possibility of a night counterattack. whether its a good strategy or not, it takes some of the fun out of Red Barricades for me.

i didn't ask for the rules to be changed.

 

[Oberst Balck]

bits n pieces

PITMAN

And I think the notion that they were "masters" of night attacks is not supportable. What appears to be the case (other nationalities fighting the Germans occasionally mentioned this as well) is simply that the Germans did not like to fight at night.

They were masters of infiltration. I can send a few refrences but words like

" when we woke up the next day we were amazed to find that the Russians had gone through our positions completely undetected" are not uncommon.

I should mention this is not just a RB thing, and in fact RB is just a subset of the overall brilliance of the Russians.


'Ol Fezziwig

As for their storm tactics, IIRC, these were platoon-sized elements, not half-squad sized elements. Besides these half squads aren't going to provide offensive shock, they're going to pussy foot around playing the same old half squad games

Right 3 HS with 2 DC each are not going to grab your attention

alanp

I didn't say as a " always" event. I said when the Russian select to attack - about a 20% event in RB.


Mc Finn

Changing the night rules for just one nationality seems pretty far fetched. Again, I don't remember reading that any one nationality was able to use the night any more effectivly than another.

How many book's HAVE you read


Lastly,

Any idea that the German's can attack with 0 ELR is just plain dumb, it is a strategy destind to failure in fact it quite literally wouldn't get off the ground.

 

['Ol Fezziwig]

Right 3 HS with 2 DC each are not going to grab your attention

Not as much as 3 628s w/2 DC each would.
Within the context of a storm (not 'sturm' these are, after all, _Russians_) _platoon_ how much punch is left over after half of it is deployed into itty-bitty HS? Or after every HS breaks or pins taking with it the, I'm assuming, carefully hoarded DC? Of which, it can only use one per firephase unlike the aforementioned 628 which could theoretically drop both on your nugget...
Sorry, this is beginning to sound like modern day revisionism...

 

[Tater]

i don't like this strategy, cuz as the russians i wouldn't want to spend hundreds of hours playing RB without the possibility of a night counterattack. whether its a good strategy or not, it takes some of the fun out of Red Barricades for me.

I believe that shortly after the German buys that 2nd (or 3rd) AE coy the Russian will have an opportunity for the night assault.

The idea of the "None Stop Attack" (NSA) is to turn the tables on the "Personal MC Failure" (PMCF) in RB. Usually it is the German that suffers the PMCF when he doesn't hit the kill ratio and the Ruski hords grow and grow to the point of seeming hoplessness. The NSA would allow the German to run at a slightly lower kill ratio _AND_ reduces the Ruski ability to take full advantage of his cheaper infantry (the Ruski usually ends up having to spend some for on-board set-up infantry).

However, I think it is impossible for the German to effectively go 30 CG scenarios without an idle date _AND_ I also think it will be very obvious when he will need to take it...i.e., the desperate need will be obvious to both sides! If anyone has gone 30 without an idle please chime in.

A much more likely result is that the Ruski player will suffer a PMCF out of frustration before the German is forced to take that idle date. Remember, the pressure is actually on the German. All the Ruski has to do is never give up (i.e., PMCF).

In my estimat, assuming the Ruski holds on, the German will absolutly need to go idle sometime around the 23rd-26th days. This assumes that the Germ startes buying the AE coy over the course of days 20-23. The Germ AE coy aren't needed until the Russian has already hit 1 ELR which should happen on about the 20-22 day (unless the Russian is very unfortunate)...this is a guess since I have never taken the NSA that far in...my Ruski opponents have usually hit the PMCF well before that time. I have never had anyone use the NSA against me when I played the Ruski's.

i didn't ask for the rules to be changed.

:hmmm:...uh, limiting initiative selection relative to ELR level would be a change to the RB rules.

 

[McFinn]

Mc Finn

How many book's HAVE you read

Several thousand.

 

[McFinn]

Is that the whole OB is ELR 0? The German 838's are always ELR 5 so as long as they have AE's they could pick attack chits.

Tater,

The Annual did not elaborate on the rule. It only stated that the playtesters lobbied for an No Attack with ELR 0 rule.

I assumed this would mean no attack if the Majority squad type in your OB had an ELR of 0 (again I assumed this). So your interpetation of this unwritten rule is as good as mine.

You make valid points on the difficulty of attacking with ELR 0 Germans + ELR 5 engineers.

Jack's metions the attack till ELR 0 and beyond strategy rubs him the wrong way.

I think Jay White does a great job of explaining what it is that rubs folks the wrong way, when describing that the "fun factor" decreases for the Russians if the Germans can attack every turn of the CG and deny a chance for a Russian night attack. I think the thought of exausted (represented by ELR 0) Germans attacking every day also stikes some folks as "unrealistic" or ahistorical representation of Stalingrad.

That said, no one requested the rule be changed. I asked if anyone implemented the house rule and what their experience was.

 

[RobZagnut]

>" when we woke up the next day we were amazed to find that the Russians had gone through our positions completely undetected" are not uncommon.

Sounds like they were Stealthy. Many scenarios have SSRs where the Russians are Stealthy.

I can't imagine them being better than Japanese units who don't want to deploy and definitely not better than Partisan units who can't deploy.

For every reason that you come up with why a rule should be changed someone will come up with a reason why it shouldn't.

 

[Pitman]

They were masters of infiltration. I can send a few refrences but words like

" when we woke up the next day we were amazed to find that the Russians had gone through our positions completely undetected" are not uncommon.

I should mention this is not just a RB thing, and in fact RB is just a subset of the overall brilliance of the Russians.

You can find anecdotal evidence for that sort of thing all the time for all sorts of nationalities. Where is the evidence of doctrine or training? Night attacks, for example, were a part of Japanese infantry doctrine and they were trained in it. Specific units, like those commanded by Terry de la Mesa Allen, were often specially trained in night attacks, because the commander believed in them.

The notion that "the Russians" were "masters of night attacks" does not seem to be supportable to me.

 

[Tater]

I think the thought of exausted (represented by ELR 0) Germans attacking every day also stikes some folks as "unrealistic" or ahistorical representation of Stalingrad.

..."unrealistic"..."ahistorical"...I don't see it that way. Actually, I would say possibly the opposit.

Historically the German high command (i.e., Hitler) didn't give a sh*t how tired/exhuasted the troops were...he wanted Stalingrad taken and he didn't care if every single German soldier died in the attempt (pretty close to the end result, eh?!). So I don't see the condition of the German troops as being an issue to the commanders making the decision on whether to attack or not. The decisions to attack were likely being made (pushed) well removed from the front line.

The picking of an "Attack Chit" does not neccesarily mean the German actually _Attacks_. The German could pick attack, buy everything in reserve and then stand pat till the scenario is over. This would fall in quit nicely with my observation above. The commanders demand an attack but in truth the troops were to worn out to actually do anything significant. Hmmm...doesn't seem all that "ahistorical" to me.

Picking an Attack chit just means a scenario is played, and it forces the Russian to make certain strategic choices based on needing to set-up for a potential _real_ attack.

Also, even if the German didn't go for the NSA option it is a guessing game for the Ruski to figure when the Germ might go idle. IOW, getting the night assault in is pretty iffy regardless of what strategy the German has decided to use.