Precision Dice

[von Marwitz]

I played in a tournament recently and was using me BattleSchool precision dice. My opponent started to DEMAND that I change dice. He got to the point where he had tears in his eyes he was so adamant. He got the TD to come over and told the TD to tell me to change my dice. The TD took my dice rolled them a couple of time and said they were find.
My Opponent never came out and accussed me of cheating. - but the implication was there. He never appologized to me or the TD for his out burst, but if I ever have to play him again I know which dice I will bring out.

Oh my!

What you report indicates yet another reason why one should not bow to dice-superstition:

Using normal dice does no harm (as pointed out upthread).
If you use precision dice to lay matters at rest, this might still not satisfy people afflicted with dice-superstition, and they demand something on top of that.

What would be the next madness they demand?
You can never cure their mistrust regardless of what you do, unless they make the choice to drop that dice-superstition themselves.

von Marwitz

 

[Bill Kohler]

I played in a tournament recently and was using me BattleSchool precision dice. My opponent started to DEMAND that I change dice.

Why did he want a change--because the dice were repeatedly rolling low, because he didn't like the confusing non-pip side(s), because he was offended by a symbol on them, because he suspected they were imbalanced?

If it were me, each of those reasons would suggest a different response. (As would the way in which the request/demand was made.) Generally, though, I find that kindness is the best response. I doubt I'll ever win a tournament, so I'm there to have fun, and I'd like my opponent to have fun too. I have half a dozen precision dice, and I'd gladly use any of them and let him use any of them--no symbols, only pips.

 

[lluis61]

Why did he want a change--because the dice were repeatedly rolling low, because he didn't like the confusing non-pip side(s), because he was offended by a symbol on them, because he suspected they were imbalanced?

If it were me, each of those reasons would suggest a different response. (As would the way in which the request/demand was made.) Generally, though, I find that kindness is the best response. I doubt I'll ever win a tournament, so I'm there to have fun, and I'd like my opponent to have fun too. I have half a dozen precision dice, and I'd gladly use any of them and let him use any of them.

I think the reaction of the TD limits the options to the first and last that you propose: The TD comes, rolls the dice a few times and says they're OK... So I think it's a case of sheer impoliteness by the opponent, not any related to the pips or a protest against an unappropriate symbol.

 

[Bill Kohler]

Using normal dice does no harm (as pointed out upthread).

Using imbalanced dice, IMO, could provide an unfair advantage.

Proving a pair of dice is imbalanced, though, is impossible (or at least impracticle) under the conditions of a tourney. But if the dice my opponent wished to use were obviously lopsided/chintzy or had a chunk missing from them (as happened to me once), I would suggest an upgrade. I wouldn't have a problem with someone using BV dice, either the old roundish AH ones or the newer crisp-sided MMP ones.

 

[bendizoid]

I’ll roll whatever dice. I usually ask if I can use an extra set of my opponent’s dice. Just please don’t make me roll any dice with skulls or daggers or anything but pips. I just want to get on with the game.

 

[lluis61]

Using imbalanced dice, IMO, could provide an unfair advantage.

Proving a pair of dice is imbalanced, though, is impossible under the conditions of a tourney. But if the dice my opponent wished to use were obviously lopsided/chintzy or had a chunk missing from them (as happened to me once), I would suggest an upgrade. I wouldn't have a problem with someone using BV dice, either the old roundish AH ones or the newer crisp-sided MMP ones.

You're asking and answering yourself. In an impromptu game, I'm disposed to use any dice: my opponents, a couple of the proposed by him, if I can choose them beforehand... any. And I'll stick to them. We're not speaking about chunked or deformed dice here.
In games programmed, I bring my own equipment. I use BattleSchool precision, high-grade aluminium precision or backgammon precision, alongside my BattleSchool Sniper's effects and others. In fact I use what I feel to be more comfortable to play that day; and bring my own Mario Aceto dice tower, the medium or the small.
I use precision dice to demonstrate my opponent that I'm a bona fide player, that I don't have a pair of (probably superstitious) "lucky" dice. My opponent can use what it seems fit to him. But I will not allow dice cup rolls "removed", not shaken (and I've seen some rolls made without the faces of the dice ever parting the base of the cup and say that that was a "dice roll"), or hand rolls made with such a care as to practically deposit the dice on the surface. I'm not a player of tournements so, after a first warning, the second action by me is to say: "Congratulations, you win" And never play with that player again.
I like my dice, and it happens that are precision dice, and, they treat me good or bad, I know that they're not guilty: me, my opponent, or fate (yes, it exists) are.

 

[Ric of The LBC]

This is my die. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

My die is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.

Without me, my die is useless. Without my die, I am useless. I must roll my die true. I must roll lower than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will …

My die and I know that what counts in ASL is not the modifiers we count, the noise of the roll, nor the storage systems we make. We know that it is the low rolls that count. We will hit …

My die is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its shape and its pips. I will keep my die clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will …

Before God, I swear this creed. My die and I are the defenders of my counters. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life.

So be it, until victory is mine and there is no enemy, but peace! OR the victory conditions are satisfied!"

 

[Bill Kohler]

You're asking and answering yourself.

Actually I was beating a dead horse by reiterating a previous point over which some of us have been arguing.

--I believe an imbalanced die is--by definition--imbalanced, and over many rolls will not provide equal percentages for its six dice faces.
--By not providing equal odds, that die will, on average, be either an advantage or a disadvantage to the roller (depending on whether it is imbalanced toward high rolls, or imbalanced toward low rolls).
--That die will provide an advantage (or a disadvantage) to an ASL player that's in proportion to the severity of its imbalance.
These statements are, I think, self-evident.

What is less known is (a) what percentage of run-of-the-mill die are imbalanced, (b) how severe those imbalances typically are, and (c) what impact such a die can be expected to have on ASL games. Wayne, who has posted previously in this thread, has tested various dice and could likely speak more knowledgeably about points (a) and (b) than I can. Knowing the answers to (a) and (b), one could IMO come up with an estimate as to how much an unbalanced die can be expected to affect a typical medium scenario of ASL.

If imbalanced dice are rare--or if those which are, are only marginally imbalanced--then all this ballyhoo is over nothing. OTOH, it's also possible that some players--while not seeking to cheat--can develop an affinity toward certain dice which "roll well" for them, or which "are lucky" for them. In so doing, they may--unwittingly--be selecting out imbalanced dice that are more than "just lucky".

I've done a little playing around with Wayne's numbers, numbers which also show how much skew from uniformity a balanced die can exhibit over 100 die rolls. He also provides values for how far from average a balanced die will be in the worst twenty percent of cases. According to my very, very crude estimates, that skew can be on the order of "the balance" that's given in a scenario. So if my thinking is correct, in 1-in-5 ASL games, perfectly balanced dice will favor the luckier roller with a boost that's on the order of the balance. It would also suggest that players who consistently win tournaments are better than average players by at least the balance of the scenarios.

 

[DVexile]

No one seems to be discussing that a dice tower can also be biased if you drop the dice in the same orientation each time. This effect can be as high or higher than the bias from cheap dice imbalanced dice. Even if not intentionally using the same orientation each time you can end up with subsequent rolls being correlated with previous rolls simply because of the way one routinely collects the dice and drops them in without randomizing the orientation. Again, a properly designed dice tower won’t have any issues, but one with low friction baffles can.

So if someone is obsessed about precision dice they should be at least, if not more, obsessed about dice tower design. But instead it seems a lot of folks blindly assume a dice tower, regardless of its design, is going to properly randomize rolls.

Anyway, like nearly everyone else in the thread, I would be happy to play with and have my opponent play with either precision dice or cheap dice like in BV. Biases would have to be quite high to measurably affect the outcome.

I also understand why many folks are happy to pay extra for precision dice just to feel better, because indeed precision dice are less likely to be biased than cheap dice. But if you really care you should probably actually test them with a Chi-squared test and that test should include your routine method of rolling (e.g. dice tower, cup shaken three times, etc.).

 

[Cpl Uhl]

Proving a pair of dice is imbalanced, though, is impossible (or at least impracticle) under the conditions of a tourney.

As is proving that a pair of dice is precision.

 

[PresterJohn]

And if you feel the urge to clean your dice - nothing harsher than warm soapy water.

 

[Robin Reeve]

As is proving that a pair of dice is precision.

As is proving that I am not paranoid or in a psychotic delusion.
As ASL introduces randomness in many of its mechanics, we are all tempted to fall into a form of irrationality.
At some level, we have to take a step back and consider that we are just playing a game.
The obsession about precision dice is quite irrational: the infinitesimal differences with good, normally crafted dice, should not lead us to what is, finally, superstition.
When I go to work, I am not afraid that a meteorite will hit me, even though a very small chance exists that one could.

 

[Robin Reeve]

As is proving that a pair of dice is precision.

Washing hands helps a lot too.

 

[Bill Kohler]

The obsession about precision dice is quite irrational: the infinitesimal differences with good, normally crafted dice, should not lead us to what is, finally, superstition.

Yes, "obsessions" are most of the time irrational. However, is a quest for well-balanced dice irrational? I assert no.

And how do you know the differences among "normally crafted" dice are only infinitesimal?

Yes, people can have superstitions about their dice:
"Gee, they've just rolled two snake, I'd better rest this pair a bit."
"I don't talk bad about my dice."
"My rolling has been so bad, I'm due for some good rolls."
"I always drop them into the dice tower with the one's face up."
"I always slam them down hard into the dice tower, to show them who's boss."

But that's not the same thing as asking, "How much, in reality, can dice be biased, and how much, in reality, can imbalanced dice be expected to affect an ASL game?" These questions are not superstition questions but scientific questions. And, as such, they are answerable.

 

[Robin Reeve]

The question is, from a sample of 200-400 dice rolls during a scenario, the significance of the difference between precision and well balanced dice.
I would venture that it is infinitesimal.
If the sample were several thousand rolls, the difference would be more discernible.
Science is also about setting the proper verification conditions.

Another subsidiary question or perspective would be to only compare DRs after their impact on the outcome of the gaming situations: all dice rolls are not equal.
But that would require a much more complex modelisation.

 

[Bill Kohler]

Another subsidiary question or perspective would be to only compare DRs after their impact on the outcome of the gaming situations: all dice rolls are not equal. But that would require a much more complex modelisation.

I don't think it need be that complicated, if one just wants a ballpark estimate.

--Which rolls are important? Rallies, MCs, IFTs, THs, TKs, CCs.
--How many of those are made in a typical player turn in a typical small- to medium-sized scenario? Maybe 15 for each player.
--How does the probability distribution for a typical imbalanced dice pair differ from that of a perfectly balanced dice pair?
--So how many DRs per game turn (on average) will be impacted, and by how many pips?

Experienced players will have a good feel, I think, for the impact such a shift would have on a game.

I think an even more interesting--but closely related--question is, How much does a lucky/unlucky game-long rolling streak (at the level of luck that one expects to encounter every fifth game or so) affect a game? My (simple and likely flawed) estimate for this latter, based loosely on Wayne's probability numbers, is that one to two DRs per game turn would show a 2-pip difference in favor of one side.

 

[kcole4001]

One of the benefits of using a separate, clearly marked sniper/rate/whatever die is that there will no question as to what was rolled and for what purpose.
I often forgot what I rolled on the coloured die (especially when playing solo), so leaving the die in place after rolling makes the game go a little more smoothly.

 

[PresterJohn]

An infinitesimal bias (approaching zero) would not be measurable using the previously mentioned experiments with several hundred rolls.
Therefore a bias that can be measured by using the previously mentioned experiments with several hundred repeated rolls is not infinitesimal.
How many rolls would one make in a three or four day tournament? It's probably not worth worrying about, but people worry about all sorts of things, leaving the gas on, losing their keys, dropping their phone, getting kidnapped by aliens.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

An infinitesimal bias (approaching zero) would not be measurable using the previously mentioned experiments with several hundred rolls.
Therefore a bias that can be measured by using the previously mentioned experiments with several hundred repeated rolls is not infinitesimal.
How many rolls would one make in a three or four day tournament? It's probably not worth worrying about, but people worry about all sorts of things, leaving the gas on, losing their keys, dropping their phone, getting kidnapped by aliens.

Back in 2009, I was actually kidnapped by aliens. They didn’t do anything to me other than took my keys and my phone.

I didn’t get a chance to turn the gas off cause we took off in a jiffy, but they gave me a dicetower and my dice were always a little wonky after that.

 

[DVexile]

One of the benefits of using a separate, clearly marked sniper/rate/whatever die is that there will no question as to what was rolled and for what purpose.
I often forgot what I rolled on the coloured die (especially when playing solo), so leaving the die in place after rolling makes the game go a little more smoothly.

The RB actually suggests players always roll three dice such that there is already a subsequent dr if needed (A.1).