pillbox exit into bamboo

MajorDomo

DM? Chuck H2O in his face
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
2,826
Reaction score
512
Location
Fluid
Country
llUnited States
So, I exit a pillbox in Bamboo, CX and pinned?

Does answer change if there is a path in Bamboo?

Thanks,

Rich
 

Binchois

Too many words...
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,418
Reaction score
469
Location
Michigan
First name
Lester
Country
llUnited States
Just 1 MF as per G3.2 and B30.4:

G3.2 ENTRY: Infantry may enter bamboo only via Minimum Move (A4.134), Low Crawl (A10.52), exiting a tunnel or pillbox, or Advance vs Difficult Terrain (A4.72)​

B30.4 Infantry enter a pillbox Location in their hex at a cost of one MF. Infantry exit a pillbox Location by paying one MF to enter the pillbox hex [EXC: tunnel (B8.6); bunker (30.8)].​
I think G3.2 could be written a bit clearer, but the grammar ending with "or Advance vs Difficult Terrain" seems to mean that a unit exiting from a pillbox should use the regular pillbox rule (B30.4) and not Low Crawl, Minimum Move or Advance vs Difficult Terrain.
 

Philippe D.

Elder Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
1,368
Reaction score
506
Location
Bordeaux
Country
llFrance
I guess I don't play enough PTO - I never realized how well Japanese Pillboxes work with Bamboo. Place the tunnel exit in a nearby Bamboo hex, and you have an excellent way out, plus if the opponent is ever foolish enough to move into one of the exit bamboos, you can go ambush him there (he'll at least be CX to your Concealed).
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
20,507
Reaction score
4,818
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
I guess I don't play enough PTO - I never realized how well Japanese Pillboxes work with Bamboo. Place the tunnel exit in a nearby Bamboo hex, and you have an excellent way out, plus if the opponent is ever foolish enough to move into one of the exit bamboos, you can go ambush him there (he'll at least be CX to your Concealed).
While true that you would get a good ambush if your opponent went into bamboo and you had a tunnel, the allies hardly ever go into bamboo unless there's a good reason, and there hardly ever is. Perhaps a better tactic is to put the pillbox in the bamboo and use the bamboo something like wire. Enemy units that want to advance in to take out the pillbox with CC are CX, and the unit IN the pillbox can advance out without becoming CX (for some hand-to-hand), or they can retreat (advance?) through their tunnel. If your goal is to use the tunnel for ambush, jungle is better, especially if you can find a jungle hex that might attract broken enemy units for rally.

JR
 
Last edited:

Swiftandsure

Robin Reeve
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
16,338
Reaction score
1,896
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
Bamboo is also a nice place for HIP units (e.g. T-H heroes)...
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
9,581
Reaction score
2,734
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llGibraltar
I guess I don't play enough PTO - I never realized how well Japanese Pillboxes work with Bamboo. Place the tunnel exit in a nearby Bamboo hex, and you have an excellent way out, plus if the opponent is ever foolish enough to move into one of the exit bamboos, you can go ambush him there (he'll at least be CX to your Concealed).
As the Japanese Pillboxes normally have Tunnels, you can also put the Tunnels to good use in combination with Bamboo: Put out the Pillbox in front and have the Tunnel end somewhere behind the Bamboo. You can thus escape (or attack again) relatively easily passing beneath the Bamboo.

Also works the other way around: Put your Japanese defenders in front of Bamboo in a HIP Foxhole in which the Tunnel ends. Shoot & delay until your Japanese unit is reduced/broken and then fall back beneath the Bamboo through the Tunnel. The enemy will not be able to follow through your Tunnel (he might destroy the entrance at best) and is then slowed by the Bamboo while you can sort out your brokies behind and be ready ADJACENT when he's entering the Bamboo.

Sometimes, you can also use "offensive" Tunnels: Suppose the enemy has a "rout haven" which he deems especially safe due to the movement restrictions of ADJACENT Bamboo. Put your Tunnel-end to the front to the "rout haven". He'll be broken in there. In your MPh, you move through the Tunnel only to emerge concealed with you stealthy Japanese in the CCPh into the brokies. Ambush anyone? I also had this work with "normal" Jungle Hexes: I offensively moved a Dummy beneath a dangerous US stack. The G.I.s were so afraid of being ambushed and engaged in H-t-H, that the voluntarily broke and routed away before I could emerge. That was a quite heroic Japanese Dummy. 🆒

von Marwitz
 
Last edited:

Swiftandsure

Robin Reeve
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
16,338
Reaction score
1,896
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
Aren't Bunkers, after the rules jargon, Pillboxes ADJACENT to a Trench?
That said, you are right that, barring an SSR, the Japanese have tunnels attached to their Pillboxes (G1.632).
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
9,581
Reaction score
2,734
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llGibraltar
Aren't Bunkers, after the rules jargon, Pillboxes ADJACENT to a Trench?
That said, you are right that, barring an SSR, the Japanese have tunnels attached to their Pillboxes (G1.632).
You are correct. What I meant was G1.632 indeed. I have corrected this in my post.

von Marwitz
 
Last edited:

c600g

Member
Joined
May 11, 2016
Messages
132
Reaction score
87
Location
Oceanside, CA
Country
llUnited States
I've had a few recent scenarios played with pillboxes, and I'd like to piggy-back on this topic a bit.

Can a unit advance from a hex adjacent to a hex containing a (non-occupied) pillbox, and into the pillbox in the same APh? At first, I thought that this would not be allowed per A4.7: "A unit may not change both its Location within a hex and also the hex it is in during the same APh..." as a pillbox is a distinct location in a hex. However, my opponent thought otherwise.

Entrenchments are NOT distinct locations, and hence they can be entered/exited during the APh when moving into or out of a hex.

Alan
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
20,507
Reaction score
4,818
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Can a unit advance from a hex adjacent to a hex containing a (non-occupied) pillbox, and into the pillbox in the same APh? At first, I thought that this would not be allowed per A4.7: "A unit may not change both its Location within a hex and also the hex it is in during the same APh..." as a pillbox is a distinct location in a hex. However, my opponent thought otherwise.
A unit may not advance into a hex and then INTO a pillbox in general. If the pillbox is a bunker (connected to a trench), then a unit in the adjacent hex in a trench *may* advance directly INTO the pillbox. I am not sure if the unit may advance under the entrenchment in the first hex then INTO the pillbox.

Entrenchments are NOT distinct locations, and hence they can be entered/exited during the APh when moving into or out of a hex.
Yes.

JR
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
15,940
Reaction score
1,779
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
Aren't Bunkers, after the rules jargon, Pillboxes ADJACENT to a Trench?
That said, you are right that, barring an SSR, the Japanese have tunnels attached to their Pillboxes (G1.632).
The trench can also be IN the pillboxes hex.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
20,507
Reaction score
4,818
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
I am not sure if the unit may advance under the entrenchment in the first hex then INTO the pillbox.
On further thought I believe a can advance into the trench then INTO the pillbox. A unit may advance out of an entrenchment in one hex then change locations (even entering an entrenchment in the other location), and that wouldn't seem much different.

JR
 

Swiftandsure

Robin Reeve
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
16,338
Reaction score
1,896
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
The trench can also be IN the pillboxes hex.
Indeed.
I think that hey still would be ADJACENT Locations after the Index definition (I have a doubt because LOS doesn't exist between them):
ADJACENT (Locations [and units in them] are considered ADJACENT if any Infantry unit in one Location could conceivably—ignoring any enemy presence—advance into the other during the APh and a LOS exists between the two Locations, excluding SMOKE Hindrance [B.20] and NVR [E1.101] as factors)
EDIT : I shouldn't have doubted...
B30.6 SAME HEX: Same-level units inside and outside a pillbox in the same hex are ADJACENT
 

Swiftandsure

Robin Reeve
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
16,338
Reaction score
1,896
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
However, I see that the Trench may be in an accessible hex, which may not be ADJACENT to the Pillbox...
So my reference to ADJACENCY is not the best way to describe a Bunker.
Ugh!
 

c600g

Member
Joined
May 11, 2016
Messages
132
Reaction score
87
Location
Oceanside, CA
Country
llUnited States
On further thought I believe a can advance into the trench then INTO the pillbox. A unit may advance out of an entrenchment in one hex then change locations (even entering an entrenchment in the other location), and that wouldn't seem much different.

JR
I think that makes perfect sense and is consistent with the entrenchment rules as well.

So, to summarize the pillbox / bunker stuff, we have this:

7488

[Note: The HS is IN the pillbox in hex M13, and the squad is NOT IN the trench in N13.]

1. Both pillboxes are bunkers since the hexes containing the pillbox counters are Accessible to a Trench counter's hex (e.g. a unit in the Trench counter's hex could Advance during the APh into the pillbox hex).

2. In the APh, the HS could:
(a) Advance out of the pillbox/bunker in M13.
(b) Advance INTO the Trench in N13.
(c) Advance INTO the Trench in N13, and then out of the Trench.

3. In the APh, the squad could:
(a) Advance into hex M13 (or O14), on top of the pillbox/bunker.
(b) Advance INTO the Trenchin N13 and then INTO the pillbox/bunker in M13 (or O14).

4. In the APh, the 7-0 leader could:
(a) Advance into hex O14 on top of the pillbox/bunker.
(b) Advance into hex P14 on top of or INTO the Trench.

Alan
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
15,940
Reaction score
1,779
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
I do not think you can advance frim the pillbox into an adjacent accessible trench and then, in the same advance phase, advance out of that trench.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
20,507
Reaction score
4,818
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
I do not think you can advance frim the pillbox into an adjacent accessible trench and then, in the same advance phase, advance out of that trench.
I don't see why not. The unit only changes one location. Admittedly the rulebook doesn't cover this specific case but units enter and leave entrenchments in cases it does mention. There isn't a rule that says something specific, like, "you can only enter (not exit) an entrenchment in the location entered, and you can only exit (not enter) an entrenchment in the hex that is being left." In the absence of a specific rule like that I would say movement within a location is allowed as long as the unit changes location at most once. It might be worth a q&a just to make sure.

JR
 

Larry

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
3,627
Reaction score
136
Location
Guada La Habra
Country
llUnited States
30.8 BUNKERS:
A Pillbox counter in the same hex with a trench and/or in a hex Accessible to a Trench counter's hex is considered a bunker. A bunker is treated as a pillbox in all respects except that a unit may move/rout/advance/Withdraw-from-CC between a bunker and such a trench as if the bunker were also a trench [EXC: the entry/exit restrictions given in 30.42, 30.44, and 30.6 still apply].
Treat the bunker like a trench ...
 
Top