Ordnance SMOKE and Target Size

[Fort]

Well, if nothing else comes of this, at least Jim(squared) motivated me to start looking at/reading the rulebook again after almost 20 years of not having read it.

I did find several things that support firing at a 'hex' with ATT. One of the most telling is C6.521 "An Area Acquired counter applies to all non-Aerial units and terrain which are currently in the acquirer's LOS in that Acquired counter's hex. Using Area Target Type, a Gun can fire on a hex not containing a Known enemy unit;"

I'm still reading/studying the situation, but am more than ever convinced that you can indeed hit a target hex with SMOKE if you hit any target in the hex including the hex itself...with the hardest to hit target not mattering at all.

 

[Actionjick]

Bumping this up. Quite the discussion. If it got Gary to read the rules after twenty years it has to have considerable merit.

 

[DVexile]

What was the conclusion to this?

There are about a hundred posts in here about "asking Perry" and "what will Perry say" then the whole thread dies. I see no formal Perry Sez on the topic either. Did this ever get asked of Perry?

 

[Actionjick]

What was the conclusion to this?

There are about a hundred posts in here about "asking Perry" and "what will Perry say" then the whole thread dies. I see no formal Perry Sez on the topic either. Did this ever get asked of Perry?

Don't know. Perhaps shoot Gary a pm and ask.

 

[Stewart]

Since you can Drop WP on a gully hex at ?ed units OoLOS...i'm pretty sure its terrain only needed to be hit.

 

[Larry]

This is the subject of a PS:

A2.8, A6.3, & B20.9
May a unit fire at a Depression hex if they have LOS to the crest level of the hex, but no LOS INTO the Depression hex in the
following situations:
A) The hex is devoid of non-HIP units?
B) The hex has a non-HIP unit IN the Depression, but no non-HIP unit at crest level?
A. Yes to both; only units at crest level would be affected (other than for WP).

 

[volgaG68]

There are two in-game questions on this topic that rear their ugly heads once in a blue moon, and IIRC the one-pip difference of size never ended up being relevant. "Roll first to see if it's close enough to even argue about", and it fortunately never has been.

1) If I want to fire ordnance SMOKE at a hex with no obvious occupants, but the enemy has a HIP Gun/AFV there with a size-modifier, should it count on the TH DR? .....I'm not 100% sure, but I believe it does. But, how does one apply such an intelligence-gathering coup? If it was my HIP Gun, I wouldn't say anything until seeing the DR. Then, however, I believe I am obligated to reveal there is "something" there with a size-modifier if it indeed changed his placement result from a hit to a miss.

2) What if I wanted to fire ordnance SMOKE at a hex containing only a +1 (small) size AFV of mine? Would the size-modifier affect the DR?

 

[Eagle4ty]

There are two in-game questions on this topic that rear their ugly heads once in a blue moon, and IIRC the one-pip difference of size never ended up being relevant. "Roll first to see if it's close enough to even argue about", and it fortunately never has been.

1) If I want to fire ordnance SMOKE at a hex with no obvious occupants, but the enemy has a HIP Gun/AFV there with a size-modifier, should it count on the TH DR? .....I'm not 100% sure, but I believe it does. But, how does one apply such an intelligence-gathering coup? If it was my HIP Gun, I wouldn't say anything until seeing the DR. Then, however, I believe I am obligated to reveal there is "something" there with a size-modifier if it indeed changed his placement result from a hit to a miss.

2) What if I wanted to fire ordnance SMOKE at a hex containing only a +1 (small) size AFV of mine? Would the size-modifier affect the DR?

1). Since SMOKE must be fired using the Area Target Type there is no requirement to specify a particular target in the hex in order to place SMOKE/ATT Hit (A7.4 ,C.4, C3.33, C3.41 & A24.31) in that hex so the size modifier would not be applicable to hit the hex/Location even though the actual (eventual) target may not be hit. Therefore, once SMOKE has been placed based upon the original shot at the hex all eligible units in that hex would be affected by that SMOKE once placed (C3.33 & A24.1).

2). Per A7.1 Fire attacks (and that would include SMOKE fired on the ATT as I believe that is considered an attack-no given definition for an attack given in the Index though) is used to attack enemy units so I do not believe you could attack a hex/Location containing only a friendly unit. There is a possibility though if your unit is HIP, as I can see a case being made that there are no known units in the hex when the attack was announced (just not sure if that violates the intent of the rules or not).

 

[apbills]

2). Per A7.1 Fire attacks (and that would include SMOKE fired on the ATT as I believe that is considered an attack-no given definition for an attack given in the Index though) is used to attack enemy units so I do not believe you could attack a hex/Location containing only a friendly unit. There is a possibility though if your unit is HIP, as I can see a case being made that there are no known units in the hex when the attack was announced (just not sure if that violates the intent of the rules or not).

This Q&A answers the question:
Q: As per A7.4 I cannot fire ATT at a hex occupied solely per friendly units. May I fire Smoke with ordnance at such a hex? And WP?
UA: Smoke, but not WP.

 

[volgaG68]

2). Per A7.1 Fire attacks (and that would include SMOKE fired on the ATT as I believe that is considered an attack-no given definition for an attack given in the Index though) is used to attack enemy units so I do not believe you could attack a hex/Location containing only a friendly unit. There is a possibility though if your unit is HIP, as I can see a case being made that there are no known units in the hex when the attack was announced (just not sure if that violates the intent of the rules or not).

Wow! I can't have been screwing the pooch that bad for that many years, have I? Although technically such a scenario falls under the rule you describe, I (and past oppos) have fired many a SMOKE round into a hex containing only our units to screen them from enemy fire or smooth their withdrawal.

 

[volgaG68]

Wow! I can't have been screwing the pooch that bad for that many years, have I? Although technically such a scenario falls under the rule you describe, I (and past oppos) have fired many a SMOKE round into a hex containing only our units to screen them from enemy fire or smmoth their withdrawal.

EDIT: Just saw apbills response. Whew!

 

[Stewart]

EDIT: Just saw apbills response. Whew!

Smoke does no damage...WP actually inflicts "casualties" and that would be an "attack" vs friendly units and therefore not allowed unless in Melee or I'm sure other off the ball circumstances.

 

[nekengren2]

1). .................Therefore, once SMOKE has been placed based upon the original shot at the hex all eligible units in that hex would be affected by that SMOKE once placed (C3.33 & A24.1).

So............... if WP is successfully placed in a stone building (often TH-DR<=9) ..............The enemy unit would only take MC if TH-DR <=(9-3Smoke) <= 6 ????????? oh my never played it that way.

 

[apbills]

So............... if WP is successfully placed in a stone building (often TH-DR<=9) ..............The enemy unit would only take MC if TH-DR <=(9-3Smoke) <= 6 ????????? oh my never played it that way.

I am not sure what you are saying.
If you hit the hex with WP, infantry in the stone building would take a NMC, with a -3 DRM for the building TEM.

 

[nekengren2]

I am not sure what you are saying.
If you hit the hex with WP, infantry in the stone building would take a NMC, with a -3 DRM for the building TEM.

yes. thanks. I got mind-warped on whether the infantry was actually hit.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

yes. thanks. I got mind-warped on whether the infantry was actually hit.

If it's a multi-level building hex, those at ground level would take the WP NMC, since they are in a Location where the WP counter is placed. Units in upper levels would only take the WP NMC if those units are actually hit.

 

[nekengren2]

If it's a multi-level building hex, those at ground level would take the WP NMC, since they are in a Location where the WP counter is placed. Units in upper levels would only take the WP NMC if those units are actually hit.

oh man. not sure i would have figured that one out.

 

[Actionjick]

oh man. not sure i would have figured that one out.

Don't feel bad. It is Klas after all.

 

[Larry]

The circumstances where your infantry in an upper level might not be hit on a WP ATT shot are pretty limited ... concealed and out of LOS. Are there others?

 

[Eagle4ty]

The circumstances where your infantry in an upper level might not be hit on a WP ATT shot are pretty limited ... concealed and out of LOS. Are there others?

Non-moving during Defensive 1st Fire and units in a Cellar Location for at least two more.
If fired by a Mortar, and I believe that includes Battalion Mortar OBA as it's not really specified it must be an on-board mortar (EXC: in C3.33), it would even hit concealed units and units out of its LOS as long as it hit the hardest unit to hit in its LOS.