Maximum ROF limits

[bendizoid]

Does anybody REALLY think that anything in the rulz is going to change as a result of this exchange? Really?

Sure does, lots of people don’t mind the ROF dice and I’ve used it many times at tournaments.

 

[Jazz]

Sure does, lots of people don’t mind the ROF dice and I’ve used it many times at tournaments.

So you think anything in the book will change? Really?

Consenting adults can do as they please at the game table, but changing the holy book is another kettle of fish altogether.

 

[holdit]

That's ASL. You can play perfectly and still get fucked.

A bit like war?

"...and he went across the field. Everybody was watching that individual. I started sending them across in twos, and it was no problem. Then I took my entire force across. When we were about halfway across, they came up behind us, the VC, and they were in spiderholes, and they caught most of my unit in the open.

Now tactically I had done everything the way it was supposed to be done, but we lost some soldiers. There was no other way {...} So did I make a mistake? I don't know. Would I have done it differently [another time]? I don't think I would have because that's the way I was trained."
- Maj. Robert Ooley, U.S. Army

 

[Arty83]

Consider this better known situation and allow me to follow with an analogy. If a "stack" of weapons is fired and rolls boxcars, then a player rolls random selection to see which break. I have heard of players doing the same thing for ROF. So, for example, if three ROF 3 heavy machine guns fire and roll ROF, then the player rolls random selection to see which of those weapons got ROF. Using this method lessons the likelihood of "unbelievable" ROF tears, yet in theory all three weapons still could get ROF.

 

[Sparafucil3]

A bit like war?

"...and he went across the field. Everybody was watching that individual. I started sending them across in twos, and it was no problem. Then I took my entire force across. When we were about halfway across, they came up behind us, the VC, and they were in spiderholes, and they caught most of my unit in the open.

Now tactically I had done everything the way it was supposed to be done, but we lost some soldiers. There was no other way {...} So did I make a mistake? I don't know. Would I have done it differently [another time]? I don't think I would have because that's the way I was trained."
- Maj. Robert Ooley, U.S. Army

So he lost a unit (let's call it a squad) and no heroes. The VC still "rolled low". It's not as if he unit suddenly "grew resolve" (let's call the a Battle Harden) with a man rushing the VC (let's call that a hero). His mistake got punished. With the proper rolls in ASL, his unit would have increased in quality and Audie Murphy would have showed up. It's not that it doesn't happen in real life, it's that it happens so much in the game. What's worse, it retards learning as mistakes are rewarded rather than punished. People take the wrong lesson. -- jim

 

[JoeArthur]

but I believe that a lot of 'precision dice' roll a disproportionate number of snake eyes

Am I crazy or a fearless truth seeker?

You are just being human. Which in this case means holding a false belief

The dice drive us all nuts. Try asking to use Ian Morris's dice. Some Backgammon dice cups are advertised as "non-crushable". Try not using a dice cup and dice tower when playing me............

 

[Vic Provost]

Years ago, when I first started playing Paul Chamberland I suggested a ROF dice, he declined. Then we played a scenario where the only weapon I fired was a .50 cal which eliminated every German it sight and it was over on turn one. After that we use a ROF dice for scenarios with lots of ROF 3 weapons, especially a playtest. Even with a ROF dice you still get nasty shooting sprees but you also sometimes get a second chance after a gack roll. I’ll play either ROF dice or not but I don’t like apologizing after 15 ROFs and the scenario is over. I’ll offer to use the IIFT (not a fan) if we also use a ROF dice and also offer to use the Pleva artillary draw rule, at your option.
Seems best to use a red dice of a different size for ROF (say ‘red is rate’). After a few rolls the eyes naturally adjust to look at the correct dice.

Agreed, I'll use the ROF die on occasion and love the Pleva OBA rule, it is now part of any OBA we have in a Dispatch scenario.

The IIFT does not scare me and will use it if my opponent want to as well, it is not very often but just to add some spice to my ASL experience.

We should be having fun with the game which is priority #1 for me, as long as you don't have King Tigers in 1941 or the Japanese in Stalingrad or some other non-historical stuff going on, I'm good, Vic.

 

[Philippe D.]

Perhaps rather than "ROF 3" an HMG should be guaranteed 3 shots per phase, an MMG 2, and an LMG 1.

Well... no. With no Cowering, a HMG should get an average of 2 shots, a MMG, 1.5 shots, and a LMG, 1.2 shots.

But the impredictibility of it is a good thing, IMHO. Count me as one who doesn't want a change to the ROF rules.

 

[Philippe D.]

After that we use a ROF dice for scenarios with lots of ROF 3 weapons, especially a playtest.

If a scenario is playtested with a house rule, I'd like to know, and have it appear as a SSR. Otherwise the balance decisions will be based on false premises.

 

[JimWhite]

...and love the Pleva OBA rule...

Without question one of the best "after-market" rules out there...

 

[Sparafucil3]

Well... no. With no Cowering, a HMG should get an average of 2 shots, a MMG, 1.5 shots, and a LMG, 1.2 shots.

But the impredictibility of it is a good thing, IMHO. Count me as one who doesn't want a change to the ROF rules.

I merely suggested it as a change if the impact of ROF was diminished, then it should also be allowed some guarantees. It seems odd to me the complaints are one-sided so I suggested an addition to the proffered position. I would not change the game though. -- jim

 

[FrankH.]

Am I crazy or a fearless truth seeker?

The effect you describe is real even if somewhat rare. It's greatest impact from my experience occurs when a stack of HMGs are led by a -2 or -3 leader. There is no leader DRM to the IFT DR with mortars; the mortar is usually a fight or a decision between more fairly low chance opportunities on the IFT, and the risk of sniper activation.

MG stacks with a -2/-3 leader effectively treat buildings as open ground, taking DRM and TEM both into account. The result with ROF can be devastating; it is most commonly seen in Red Barricades with all the taller buildings.

The issue is not ROF per se but MG ROF in combination with the negative leader DRM, and in this case the greatest distortion is vs. units in buildings (or rubble, or the odd +3 pillbox).

 

[Gamer72]

The dice drive us all nuts. Try asking to use Ian Morris's dice. Some Backgammon dice cups are advertised as "non-crushable". Try not using a dice cup and dice tower when playing me............

Joe, it was after Craig reached across and took my dice during our first game that I realised I was OCD about them. Happy for my opponent to pick dice for me if they have trust issues, but once I use ‘em, I keep ‘em.
Yes Craig, I have remarked on the high number of 1s cropping up on precision dice, but that might be because the picture rather than a dot makes them more memorable. I’m sure it’s nothing to do with the loss of foil on a well-used die making the 1 side lighter....
As for the ROF suggestion, a mob with burning torches is making its way to your door

 

[Old Noob]

What's that old saying? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

 

[Nineteen Kilo]

.. I have remarked on the high number of 1s cropping up on precision dice, but that might be because the picture rather than a dot makes them more memorable. I’m sure it’s nothing to do with the loss of foil on a well-used die making the 1 side lighter....

That's my guess as well. There's nothing remarkable about one of the dice showing one dot, but up pops that national emblem and you take notice. I think it's just that simple.

 

[witchbottles]

no. the ROF tear is part of the ASL game narrative. The player must weigh the odds of a ROF occurring multiple times over the span of a MPh/DFPh or as part of a PFPh kill stack's suppressive fire capabilitites.

 

[Sparafucil3]

no. the ROF tear is part of the ASL game narrative. The player must weigh the odds of a ROF occurring multiple times over the span of a MPh/DFPh or as part of a PFPh kill stack's suppressive fire capabilitites.

So I should prepare, each and every time, for the .00195 percent chance of a 10-shot ROF tear? That seems a little excessive to me. How long do your games take if you plan to that depth EVERY MPh? -- jim

 

[hongkongwargamer]

You can play perfectly and still get fucked. Can't say I am a fan of that aspect. -- jim

That's just life man

 

[ScottRomanowski]

I remember hearing about an ASL game at an (IIRC) Avaloncon. One player consistently got ROF with the HMG; he would fire it until there were no more targets. They were each using their own dice, BTW. About halfway through the game, the ROF-player noticed something odd about the die he was using and realized he had grabbed the dice from a different game -- the colored dr was numbered 1,2,3,1,2,3 -- and he immediately conceded.

ROF tears must be such a part of the game that the results were not considered aberrant until halfway through the game!

 

[Actionjick]

So I should prepare, each and every time, for the .00195 percent chance of a 10-shot ROF tear? That seems a little excessive to me. How long do your games take if you plan to that depth EVERY MPh? -- jim

I didn't plan. The games go a lot faster.