Majority Squad Type?

[Jazz]

So we are playing a PTO night scenario. SSR calls out Majority Squad types as stealthy for the US and Lax for the Japanese.

Does this condition apply for Ambush/CC as well? Or just straying? Not really clear in the rulz....

 

[Larry]

Separate for ambush/cc ... just straying. I think Klas said that last week here or on discord.

 

[Jazz]

Separate for ambush/cc ... just straying. I think Klas said that last week here or on discord.

Looks like it wuz JR (the other)....do we have a rulz citation or Q&A to that effect?

 

[Larry]

E.4 is clear that the MST is just the majority and does not change the character of other units.

PS:

E.4, E1.53, & E1.6
E.4 explains how to work out the majority Squad Type for an OOB and for a stack but does not state how and when the majority
squad type is to be used. E1.6 states that all units are classified as Lax, Stealthy or Normal at night and that Cloaking Counters are
considered equal to the Majority Squad type of their side at scenario start. It also states that an SSR is the ultimate source of the
definition (rather superfluously as that is the case with every rule). E1.53 deals with units/stacks that stray and refers to their
classifications of Lax/Stealthy and Normal. A stack containing Stealthy and Normal units not under a cloaking counter is required
to make a movement DR as per E1.53. An SSR states that the side’s Majority squad type is Lax - what are the mechanics for
determining the classification?
A) My opponent argues that the stack should use the Majority Squad Type of the OOB because this is defined by SSR.
B) I argue that it should use the majority squad type of the stack as defined by E.4, the SSR does not over-rule this as all it is doing
is stating what the Majority squad type is for the OOB. Furthermore if the Stack Majority Squad type is not to be used then there is
no need to define it in the rules as it would never be used.
Which is correct A or B?
A. A is correct. You would use B when there is no SSR defining MST.

 

[Larry]

and this one:

E1.6
In a Night scenario, a SSR defines the Majority Squad Type as Lax. A stack (Unconcealed) consisting in two SMC and a Russian
half-squad rolls for Ambush. E1.61 tells us that SMC are “in general” Stealthy at Night.
a) Is the whole stack considered Lax (drm +1), because of the SSR?
b) Is the whole stack considered Normal (drm 0), because of E.4 (same US # of Normal and Stealthy units)?
c) Is the drm -1 because some units are Stealthy?
A. c; Majority Squad Type does not impact Ambush.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Using the same terminology for two different concepts is confusing.
Quite like Area Fire and Area Target Type...
Seems rules writers have a reduced vocabulary...

 

[Larry]

or greater confidence in their audience.

 

[Jazz]

or greater confidence in their audience.

Well, that is questionable....

 

[bendizoid]

I like a good night scenario… everything is usually eerily quiet for a turn or two, then all kinds of mayhem breaks out.

 

[Jazz]

I like a good night scenario… everything is usually eerily quiet for a turn or two, then all kinds of mayhem breaks out.

Night is a kick....that being said, I will only play night scenarios on VASL these days. All the book keeping is a royal pain sitting at a table. VASL makes it downright fun

 

[seawolf72]

If I could ask a follow up question here, in a Japanese night attack in Manila it says all units are Lax, as is the majority squad type. Fair enough. For ambush purposes, then is a hero a net zero (+1 Lax, -1 inherently Stealthy) or just a +1 for Lax like everyone else? Thanks very much!

 

[klasmalmstrom]

If I could ask a follow up question here, in a Japanese night attack in Manila it says all units are Lax, as is the majority squad type. Fair enough. For ambush purposes, then is a hero a net zero (+1 Lax, -1 inherently Stealthy) or just a +1 for Lax like everyone else? Thanks very much!

Majority Squad Type does not affect Ambush modifiers....

SF20.6233:
"All units of both sides are Lax, as is their Majority Squad Type."

 

[Michael R]

That rule implies units are Lax, regardless of Majority Squad Type.

 

[seawolf72]

That rule implies units are Lax, regardless of Majority Squad Type.

Hi Michael, one would think, right? This issue has come up repeatedly in the last 20 years (search for night lax ambush) without any satisfactory clarification... As the Manila SSR specifically calls out both the 'all units' and MST as separate clauses, my assumption would be the hero would get a +1 lax modifier for ambush just like every other unit and would not be a net zero...

 

[klasmalmstrom]

....my assumption would be the hero would get a +1 lax modifier for ambush just like every other unit and would not be a net zero...

That is what it looks like to me as well.....

 

[Michael R]

Hi Michael, one would think, right? This issue has come up repeatedly in the last 20 years (search for night lax ambush) without any satisfactory clarification.

When I wrote "rule" I meant "SSR", so no 20 years for that. I understand what you are saying, however, the MST derivation rule implies that it applies to everything, while other rules and Q&A tell us it applies to only the Movement DR.

 

[Doug Leslie]

The issue with regard to majority squad type in night scenarios seems to be one that causes confusion and, in my view, the current "official" position is not reflected by what the rules actually say.

In Chapter E, the term "majority squad type (MST)" first appears as follows:

"E.4 MAJORITY SQUAD TYPE: An OB (or stack) that contains more than one type of Personnel unit is considered to have a Majority Squad Type equal to that of the most numerous squad type (including Prisoners) in that OB (prior to setup) or stack—weighing each unit by its respective US#. If the number of such types is equal, the Majority Squad Type is that of the least advantageous (to the owner) type among the numerically-tied types.

EX: A stack consists of a Stealthy leader, squad and crew, and three Normal HS. There are six points of Stealthy units and six points of Normal units in the stack, so the Majority Squad Type of the stack is Normal."

Given that MST has no significance to any part of Chapter E apart from the night rules, it is strange that this rule doesn't appear in the relevant night rules chapter but it is what it is.

Starting with the basics, the first thing to consider is why a MST is a necessary concept in the first place. The answer only becomes clear when we start to read the night rules section and discover two concepts that are unique to night scenarios (three if you include the rarely used reconnaissance rule), namely jitter fire and straying. Briefly put, the less alert the unit, the more likely it is to betray its position by firing at shadows or to wander off course in the darkness. This is all fine and well if the unit in question is on its own, but what if there is a mixture of units in a stack? The answer lies in E4 (or so it seems): you count the number of "points" of each type of unit and the alertness status is determined by the majority in the stack. So far, so good. But wait; E4 also talks about the MST of an OB. What is that all about?

We now move to E1.6:

1.6 LAX/NORMAL/STEALTHY: All units are classified as Lax, Stealthy, or Normal at night. Cloaking counters (my emphasis) are considered equal to the Majority Squad Type of their side at Scenario start—regardless of actual contents. A SSR is the ultimate source of this definition, but the following general rules apply:

1.61 STEALTHY: At night, Stealthy units are generally those designated as Commando, Ranger, ANZAC, Gurkha, Elite/1st-Line Finns, Good Order SMC, or Partisan.

1.62 LAX: At night, Lax units include all Inexperienced, berserk, non-elite Italian/Axis Minor MMC, pre-1943 German MMC, motorized vehicles (and their PRC), and non-Good Order units.

1.63 NORMAL: At night, all other Good Order MMC are Normal, as are Good Order Lax units stacked with a Good Order SMC (even for purposes of Ambush; A11.18). Horses, Cavalry, and Animal-Drawn Transport are Normal (unless their Passengers/Riders are Lax).

At this point, things start to get murky. To me, this rules section defines what kinds of unit are stealthy/normal/lax at night. Because the attacker uses cloaking counters which could contain anything from none to a full stack of units, it is necessary to define a MST to govern whether they are more likely to stray/jitter fire. The MST should, in general, simply reflect what is in the attacker's OB. If the majority of units are stealthy, then all cloaking counters will be treated as such. Once cloaking status is lost, my interpretation of this rule is that units should use their actual stealth status for future straying DRs and, where there is a mixture of uncloaked units in a stack, E4 should apply. That however is not the position as shown in the following Q&As:

E.4, E1.53 & E1.6 E.4 explains how to work out the majority Squad Type for an OOB and for a stack but does not state how and when the majority squad type is to be used. E1.6 states that all units are classified as Lax, Stealthy or Normal at night and that Cloaking Counters are considered equal to the Majority Squad type of their side at scenario start. It also states that an SSR is the ultimate source of the definition (rather superfluously as that is the case with every rule). E1.53 deals with units/stacks that stray and refers to their classifications of Lax/Stealthy and Normal. A stack containing Stealthy and Normal units not under a cloaking counter is required to make a movement DR as per E1.53. An SSR states that the side's Majority squad type is Lax - what are the mechanics for determining the classification? A) My opponent argues that the stack should use the Majority Squad Type of the OOB because this is defined by SSR. B) I argue that it should use the majority squad type of the stack as defined by E.4, the SSR does not over-rule this as all it is doing is stating what the Majority squad type is for the OOB. Furthermore if the Stack Majority Squad type is not to be used then there is no need to define it in the rules as it would never be used. Which is correct A or B? A. A is correct. You would use B when there is no SSR defining MST. In my humble opinion, this answer is not in accordance with what is in the rules. Any night scenario has to define a MST for the attacker. If it doesn't, the players will have to determine MST themselves with reference to what is in the OB. This is purely for the purpose of determining what happens when a cloaking counter rolls for straying/jitter fire. I can see nothing in the rules to suggest that a MST "sticks" to units once they lose their cloaked status. Why should an uncloaked Gurkha squad and a 10-3 leader be treated as "normal" for straying purposes simply because the majority of the original OB was comprised of second line units? Whoever posted the original question was right: the answer given effectively renders E.4 superfluous since there will always be a MST at start whether defined by SSR or not. Then we have this Q&A. I have highlighted what I consider to be questionable. E1.6 In a Night scenario, a SSR defines the Majority Squad Type as Lax. A stack (Unconcealed) consisting in two SMC and a Russian half-squad rolls for Ambush. E1.61 tells us that SMC are "in general" Stealthy at Night. a) Is the whole stack considered Lax (drm +1), because of the SSR? b) Is the whole stack considered Normal (drm 0), because of E.4 (same US # of Normal and Stealthy units)? c) Is the drm -1 because some units are Stealthy? A. c; Majority Squad Type does not impact Ambush. Now assume the same stack must roll for Straying. d) Is it considered Lax, following the SSR? e) Is it considered Normal, following E.4? A. d. This is Night, Majority Squad Type is set to Lax by SSR. A Cloaking counter containing a SMC rolls 6,1 for Straying. f) Does it Stray? g) Now if the SMC is Uncloaked, does it Stray? A. Yes to both – Majority Squad Type is always used for Straying purposes – even when moving a single, non-Cloaked unit. Now a Cloaking counter containing a HS and a Leader wants to perform a Search attempt. h) Is the drm +1 for Lax, following the SSR? i) What is the drm if both units are Uncloaked? A. No. In both cases the drm is -1 for Stealthy leader, and 0 (if Normal) or +1 (if Lax) for the HS, netting -1 or 0. Searching drm is per each single Stealthy or Lax unit, not per stack, so Majority Stack Type is irrelevant, just as for Ambush purposes. j) In a Night scenario where the Majority Squad Type is defined per SSR, is there any situation where the players would use E.4? A. No. Just as other rules are not used when overridden by SSR. This Q&A effectively reinforces the notion that, once a MST has been determined, it sticks to all units even when they are no longer cloaked. We are left with the rather odd concept that uncloaked stealthy units become normal/lax for straying purposes if the majority of other units in the OB fall into either of these categories. To me, this is illogical and is not supported by the wording of the rules as they are currently framed. Just my tuppence worth!

 

[Jwil2020]

Excellent summary of the issue.

 

[PresterJohn]

The issue with regard to majority squad type in night scenarios seems to be one that causes confusion and, in my view, the current "official" position is not reflected by what the rules actually say.

In Chapter E, the term "majority squad type (MST)" first appears as follows:

"E.4 MAJORITY SQUAD TYPE: An OB (or stack) that contains more than one type of Personnel unit is considered to have a Majority Squad Type equal to that of the most numerous squad type (including Prisoners) in that OB (prior to setup) or stack—weighing each unit by its respective US#. If the number of such types is equal, the Majority Squad Type is that of the least advantageous (to the owner) type among the numerically-tied types.

EX: A stack consists of a Stealthy leader, squad and crew, and three Normal HS. There are six points of Stealthy units and six points of Normal units in the stack, so the Majority Squad Type of the stack is Normal."

Given that MST has no significance to any part of Chapter E apart from the night rules, it is strange that this rule doesn't appear in the relevant night rules chapter but it is what it is.

Starting with the basics, the first thing to consider is why a MST is a necessary concept in the first place. The answer only becomes clear when we start to read the night rules section and discover two concepts that are unique to night scenarios (three if you include the rarely used reconnaissance rule), namely jitter fire and straying. Briefly put, the less alert the unit, the more likely it is to betray its position by firing at shadows or to wander off course in the darkness. This is all fine and well if the unit in question is on its own, but what if there is a mixture of units in a stack? The answer lies in E4 (or so it seems): you count the number of "points" of each type of unit and the alertness status is determined by the majority in the stack. So far, so good. But wait; E4 also talks about the MST of an OB. What is that all about?

We now move to E1.6:

1.6 LAX/NORMAL/STEALTHY: All units are classified as Lax, Stealthy, or Normal at night. Cloaking counters (my emphasis) are considered equal to the Majority Squad Type of their side at Scenario start—regardless of actual contents. A SSR is the ultimate source of this definition, but the following general rules apply:

1.61 STEALTHY: At night, Stealthy units are generally those designated as Commando, Ranger, ANZAC, Gurkha, Elite/1st-Line Finns, Good Order SMC, or Partisan.

1.62 LAX: At night, Lax units include all Inexperienced, berserk, non-elite Italian/Axis Minor MMC, pre-1943 German MMC, motorized vehicles (and their PRC), and non-Good Order units.

1.63 NORMAL: At night, all other Good Order MMC are Normal, as are Good Order Lax units stacked with a Good Order SMC (even for purposes of Ambush; A11.18). Horses, Cavalry, and Animal-Drawn Transport are Normal (unless their Passengers/Riders are Lax).

At this point, things start to get murky. To me, this rules section defines what kinds of unit are stealthy/normal/lax at night. Because the attacker uses cloaking counters which could contain anything from none to a full stack of units, it is necessary to define a MST to govern whether they are more likely to stray/jitter fire. The MST should, in general, simply reflect what is in the attacker's OB. If the majority of units are stealthy, then all cloaking counters will be treated as such. Once cloaking status is lost, my interpretation of this rule is that units should use their actual stealth status for future straying DRs and, where there is a mixture of uncloaked units in a stack, E4 should apply. That however is not the position as shown in the following Q&As:

E.4, E1.53 & E1.6 E.4 explains how to work out the majority Squad Type for an OOB and for a stack but does not state how and when the majority squad type is to be used. E1.6 states that all units are classified as Lax, Stealthy or Normal at night and that Cloaking Counters are considered equal to the Majority Squad type of their side at scenario start. It also states that an SSR is the ultimate source of the definition (rather superfluously as that is the case with every rule). E1.53 deals with units/stacks that stray and refers to their classifications of Lax/Stealthy and Normal. A stack containing Stealthy and Normal units not under a cloaking counter is required to make a movement DR as per E1.53. An SSR states that the side's Majority squad type is Lax - what are the mechanics for determining the classification? A) My opponent argues that the stack should use the Majority Squad Type of the OOB because this is defined by SSR. B) I argue that it should use the majority squad type of the stack as defined by E.4, the SSR does not over-rule this as all it is doing is stating what the Majority squad type is for the OOB. Furthermore if the Stack Majority Squad type is not to be used then there is no need to define it in the rules as it would never be used. Which is correct A or B? A. A is correct. You would use B when there is no SSR defining MST. In my humble opinion, this answer is not in accordance with what is in the rules. Any night scenario has to define a MST for the attacker. If it doesn't, the players will have to determine MST themselves with reference to what is in the OB. This is purely for the purpose of determining what happens when a cloaking counter rolls for straying/jitter fire. I can see nothing in the rules to suggest that a MST "sticks" to units once they lose their cloaked status. Why should an uncloaked Gurkha squad and a 10-3 leader be treated as "normal" for straying purposes simply because the majority of the original OB was comprised of second line units? Whoever posted the original question was right: the answer given effectively renders E.4 superfluous since there will always be a MST at start whether defined by SSR or not. Then we have this Q&A. I have highlighted what I consider to be questionable. E1.6 In a Night scenario, a SSR defines the Majority Squad Type as Lax. A stack (Unconcealed) consisting in two SMC and a Russian half-squad rolls for Ambush. E1.61 tells us that SMC are "in general" Stealthy at Night. a) Is the whole stack considered Lax (drm +1), because of the SSR? b) Is the whole stack considered Normal (drm 0), because of E.4 (same US # of Normal and Stealthy units)? c) Is the drm -1 because some units are Stealthy? A. c; Majority Squad Type does not impact Ambush. Now assume the same stack must roll for Straying. d) Is it considered Lax, following the SSR? e) Is it considered Normal, following E.4? A. d. This is Night, Majority Squad Type is set to Lax by SSR. A Cloaking counter containing a SMC rolls 6,1 for Straying. f) Does it Stray? g) Now if the SMC is Uncloaked, does it Stray? A. Yes to both – Majority Squad Type is always used for Straying purposes – even when moving a single, non-Cloaked unit. Now a Cloaking counter containing a HS and a Leader wants to perform a Search attempt. h) Is the drm +1 for Lax, following the SSR? i) What is the drm if both units are Uncloaked? A. No. In both cases the drm is -1 for Stealthy leader, and 0 (if Normal) or +1 (if Lax) for the HS, netting -1 or 0. Searching drm is per each single Stealthy or Lax unit, not per stack, so Majority Stack Type is irrelevant, just as for Ambush purposes. j) In a Night scenario where the Majority Squad Type is defined per SSR, is there any situation where the players would use E.4? A. No. Just as other rules are not used when overridden by SSR. This Q&A effectively reinforces the notion that, once a MST has been determined, it sticks to all units even when they are no longer cloaked. We are left with the rather odd concept that uncloaked stealthy units become normal/lax for straying purposes if the majority of other units in the OB fall into either of these categories. To me, this is illogical and is not supported by the wording of the rules as they are currently framed. Just my tuppence worth!

Perhaps it would be nice to have a Journal article from MMP overruling the Q&A and reasserting the simpler rules interpretation as described above.

 

[Doug Leslie]

Perhaps it would be nice to have a Journal article from MMP overruling the Q&A and reasserting the simpler rules interpretation as described above.

Alternatively, scenario designers should stop defining MST in the first place. There is no reason whatsoever to use the term with regard to defender OB since it doesn’t use cloaking counters. For the attacker, the scenario card should either say nothing or make it clear that the stated MST is for cloaked movement/jitter fire purposes only. It isn’t difficult for players to work out MST using the definitions in E1.61-1.63, so I would prefer that designers use the former option. Unfortunately, MST seems to be defined as a matter of habit in scenario design and, as a result, the official interpretation means that almost every scenario has the strange effect whereby some units have different levels of alertness for night movement/jitter fire than for ambush etc. If, for whatever reason, designers want alertness levels to differ from E1.61-1.63, they should spell this out without mentioning MST at all. This should be pretty rare though and not done unless there is some good historical reason.
One issue is that Chapter E was written before the Japanese were invented, so scenarios involving them should perhaps spell out that their alertness levels are as defined in G1.6.

It would be interesting to get a take from designers on what their thinking is when they define MST (as they invariably seem to do ). Is it really their intent, for example, that Good Order SMC will, contrary to E1.61, always have the same level of alertness as the troops under their command when moving at night?