Ideas for Starter Kits?

Kevin Kenneally

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Well,

DaE is a CG idea that has come to life.

There is word/work about a PTO starter Kit.

Maybe later, DTO? Battle of the Bulge (KGP style), or even "Hilter's Tuetonic Knights" (SS)?
 

veron

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I guess it could be of the smaller nations, such as French or us Finns. Maybe as a second expansion pack?
 

von Marwitz

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I would not want to extend the SK product-line much further but rather keep all of the so far published products in stock. Starter Kit won't be "Starter" any more if you have a dozen products for it. If I were asked, people should move on to ASL, though I understand that it might be to challenging for some.

von Marwitz
 

veron

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I would not want to extend the SK product-line much further but rather keep all of the so far published products in stock. Starter Kit won't be "Starter" any more if you have a dozen products for it. If I were asked, people should move on to ASL, though I understand that it might be to challenging for some.
Well that is a very good point. From what I've understand PTO is quite a different ball game, so to speak, so I think that one is definitely well reasoned.
 

xenovin

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If more come out, I'd add a new ASL concept like concealment or bypass into the product so by the end of the SK run it would bring the player into full ASL. Transition completed!
 

FDBarbarian

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I would not want to extend the SK product-line much further but rather keep all of the so far published products in stock. Starter Kit won't be "Starter" any more if you have a dozen products for it. If I were asked, people should move on to ASL, though I understand that it might be to challenging for some.

von Marwitz
Being noob and taking 16 hours for the first 3 turns using Del Rio's tutorial on Retaking Verville (I'm so anal on rereading the rules), the only SK I would like to see is PTO (my main interest theatre of ops goal - someday). I have all 3 SK's and that's enough to learn the basics. I don't need, or want, anything else to go through that keeps me from going full blown ASL. If there are too much in the SK line It could enable some to never get to full blown ASL. Not sure if that's good or bad.
 

von Marwitz

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Being noob and taking 16 hours for the first 3 turns using Del Rio's tutorial on Retaking Verville (I'm so anal on rereading the rules), the only SK I would like to see is PTO (my main interest theatre of ops goal - someday).
My honest advice:
Find a real opponent on VASL. You might have gotten through the entire scenario twice in that time and learned more. If you then re-read the rules afterwards, many things make so much more sense. Trying to teach oneself SK (or gawd beware ASL) is a pain. Been through it, tried to learn ASL that way for too long...

I have all 3 SK's and that's enough to learn the basics. I don't need, or want, anything else to go through that keeps me from going full blown ASL. If there are too much in the SK line It could enable some to never get to full blown ASL. Not sure if that's good or bad.
That would be bad. You would be missing out on so much. SK compared to ASL is a bit like driving a Porsche pulled by a team of two horses...

von Marwitz
 

CPTNCC1701D

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To be honest I like the SK's. I think it would be good for the future growth of ASL if there was a less costly, less complex version of the ASL system to "complement" Full ASL. Not everyone can afford to or wants to buy a Porsche :) You also need a "Common Person's" vehicle.
 
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von Marwitz

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To be honest I like the SK's. I think it would be good for the future growth of ASL if there was a less costly, less complex version of the ASL system to "complement" Full ASL. Not everyone can afford to or wants to buy a Porsche :) You also need a "Common Person's" vehicle.
The three SKs, the SK Expansion Kit and the CG "Decision at Elst" along with some scenarios that have appeared in further publications should keep you busy for a while.

I see no sense in a VW Beetle with so many extra gadgets piled onto it that it becomes as expensive as a Porsche. In other words: I don't see any sense in SK PTO, SK "This" and SK "That". If you are still not tired of SK when you have played though all the stuff that has been published to this day, then it is a clear indicator, that you should really move on to ASL.

von Marwitz
 

TopT

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The three SKs, the SK Expansion Kit and the CG "Decision at Elst" along with some scenarios that have appeared in further publications should keep you busy for a while.

I see no sense in a VW Beetle with so many extra gadgets piled onto it that it becomes as expensive as a Porsche. In other words: I don't see any sense in SK PTO, SK "This" and SK "That". If you are still not tired of SK when you have played though all the stuff that has been published to this day, then it is a clear indicator, that you should really move on to ASL.

von Marwitz

100 % agree!
 

kempenfelter

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And I disagree. Starter Kit is ASL without the headaches. I bet there are a lot of Squad Leaders out there who would appreciate an easy to understand introduction to the PTO. I know I would. At the very least a Starter Kit module would encourage players to set foot in the jungle. The people who say they can't play SK because they don't know what not to do likely have never read a Starter Kit rulebook.
 

von Marwitz

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I bet there are a lot of Squad Leaders out there who would appreciate an easy to understand introduction to the PTO. I know I would.
The problem with trying to play PTO with SK rules is that it simply would not feel like PTO. I would be like night without darkness.
SK is missing Concealment and numerous other concepts that are essential for the PTO feel.

So you would need to burden SK with a lot of extra rules. And with those, gradually you will get your headache. Wanting more and more within SK means more and more rules within SK. This leads the idea of SK ad absurdum.

And of course those who say that they don't play SK because they don't know what not to do could if they put some effort into it. I am very sure that almost all of those who own SK while usually playing ASL have read it and you are wrong. But that is not the point.

Why should they put some effort to "unlearn" rules that they have learned to apply automatically and which enrich the game?
For them it would not make the game better but worse and more limited.

von Marwitz
 

ParaMarine

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An expansion to follow on their PTO module with an emphasis on the early war period. Nomonhan and the Winter War are the perfect places to introduce human waves, platoon movement, and winter camouflage. Plus the war between Japan and Russia is already overlooked too much and to the disgrace of us all!
 

jrv

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The people who say they can't play SK because they don't know what not to do likely have never read a Starter Kit rulebook.
I have read the ASLSK rules. I have written the ASLSK Index for ASL Players. I still have to continuously look up what is a feature in ASLSK and what is not. Plus my eye for glancing at a situation is distorted by ASL rules such as bypass (it's much slower to move through built-up terrain in ASLSK), firelanes (it's much easier to shut down movement with a MG in ASL), etc. Unless an ASL player is also playing a lot of ASLSK, it's fairly hard for him to play a good game of ASLSK. He can teach a newbee, sure, but playing at a top-quality level is tough.

JR
 

jrv

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It's a balancing mechanism.
I don't have a problem with that when training someone. Against a beginner I expect an experienced ASL player will be able to muddle through for the victory anyway. Besides, when training someone, the victory or loss is not the point. You just can't expect to play a good ASLSK game with no effort based on ASL experience. It's a sufficiently different game that one probably needs experience in it. Of course learning ASLSK is greatly simplified with ASL experience, but again, to the point I made, the hard part is remembering which rules are not in play.

JR
 

kempenfelter

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You might be making the game harder than it needs to be. Use what comes in the box, every Starter Kit is self-contained, and what is and is not included becomes evident. No counters for building levels means no running up and down the stairs. No covered arc counters for MGs = no fixed covered arcs for MGs. No fire lane counters and, you guessed it, no fire lanes.

Maybe as well as a PTO Starter Kit we need a DTO version. The SSRs in a lot of SK scenarios give a good approximation of ASL concepts, and that approach might work for desert fighting. Hillocks might be best avoided, however.
 

von Marwitz

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You might be making the game harder than it needs to be. Use what comes in the box, every Starter Kit is self-contained, and what is and is not included becomes evident. No counters for building levels means no running up and down the stairs. No covered arc counters for MGs = no fixed covered arcs for MGs. No fire lane counters and, you guessed it, no fire lanes.

Maybe as well as a PTO Starter Kit we need a DTO version. The SSRs in a lot of SK scenarios give a good approximation of ASL concepts, and that approach might work for desert fighting. Hillocks might be best avoided, however.
I hazard a guess that you might not have understood JR's point. For an ASLer, SK is simple. What is difficult is the "un-learning" of rules. Imagine it as driving a car for years. When you change lanes, you subconsciously put on the turn signal (well, at least an orderly German does...). In ASL you have that "turn signal". In SK it ain't there. Still, you will subconsciously try to use it and would have to actively concentrate on NOT doing so. That is true for many rules that are not there in SK. And concentrating on lots of things that suddenly aren't there is not easy. You really need to learn to view the board and the situation with different eyes just as one would need to do when playing PTO or Night in ASL.

And I believe you are still on the wrong track in what you think is needed for SK: PTO? Or even DTO? Nah.
The appeal of non-ASL players to SK is that SK is simple. With PTO or DTO you would either make it not simple or you would not get the PTO or DTO that you expect. If you want to swim, you have to contend with getting wet. If you want to stay dry, whatever you do - it won't be swimming.

von Marwitz
 

kempenfelter

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Trust me, as you get older you'll find it a lot easier to forget things. Hey, maybe instead of Starter Kit we should call it Senior Kit! I do like the car analogy, though not the turn signal part. Who uses turn signals? Not anyone on the streets where I live. Starter Kit is like driving a car with automatic transmission. If you learned on a manual the first time you set out your left foot is going to search for the clutch a bit, but after two hours in traffic the beauty of the automatic will be evident.

How do you teach a new guy? Do you drop your entire kit on the table and then hold forth for an hour about how complicated and all-encompassing the system is? I set out S1 Retaking Vierville from Starter Kit #1, and use only the counters that come in the box.
 
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