HIP unit in HIP PB reveal question

rdw5150

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Hello!

If I have a HIP unit in a HIP PB (PTO) and I need to "use" the TEM of the PB to make an attack NE, are the Unit and PB revealed?

Thanks!

Roger
 

jrv

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The pillbox is a separate location, so unless the attacking unit is firing at a hypothetical pillbox location or is a type of attack that naturally attacks multiple locations (e.g. Area Target Type), the target is not attacked and there is no need to reveal the pillbox. If the pillbox location is being targeted for whatever reason, then it would have to be revealed but its contents would retain concealment (in this case HIP) because the attack is no effect.

JR
 

Eagle4ty

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To further clarify, it is only when units IN the pillbox make an attack on an enemy unit in LOS are all units (even those that may not have participated in the attack) considered known (B30.7).
 

von Marwitz

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The pillbox is a separate location, so unless the attacking unit is firing at a hypothetical pillbox location or is a type of attack that naturally attacks multiple locations (e.g. Area Target Type), the target is not attacked and there is no need to reveal the pillbox. If the pillbox location is being targeted for whatever reason, then it would have to be revealed but its contents would retain concealment (in this case HIP) because the attack is no effect.

JR
So you're saying 'recon by fire' vs. HIP pillboxes in the PTO context will only work if I announce something like: "I fire into that hex attempting to reveal a possible pillbox there."?

Thinking about it, your argumentation (separate locations) makes sense. Probably I have played that wrong in the past.

von Marwitz
 

Philippe D.

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Thinking about it, your argumentation (separate locations) makes sense. Probably I have played that wrong in the past.
You're definitely not the only one here. At some point I was preparing for a Suicide Creek CG (never went through though), and the question of "recon by fire" vs pillboxes was a definite concern; but I never noticed that point.
 

von Marwitz

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You're definitely not the only one here. At some point I was preparing for a Suicide Creek CG (never went through though), and the question of "recon by fire" vs pillboxes was a definite concern; but I never noticed that point.
This is because in your head, when you picture someone spraying an area with fire, of course, the bullets could not 'magically omit' hypothetical locations where Pillboxes might be located. In the real world, this virtual separation is not possible. In ASL it is. Because this is counter-intuitive, people will be missing this point.

And honestly, I like the 'wrong' treatment, that Pillboxes would be revealed when firing at an empty hex better than the (for me newly discovered) 'correct' way to play it as represented by the rules. I don't like the 'exiting Foxholes' process either nor the 'AT Ditches don't connect to ADJACENT Woods', but there we are... o_O

von Marwitz
 

Robin Reeve

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It is not much more different from recon by fire vs. a multiple level building.
A given level must be fired at - barring Area Fire or other exceptions - to be affected.
Where the "suspension of belief" itch scratches is that the pillbox is hidden while a building level is not.
 

jrv

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So you're saying 'recon by fire' vs. HIP pillboxes in the PTO context will only work if I announce something like: "I fire into that hex attempting to reveal a possible pillbox there."?
As far as I know. The idea that one might fire on a possible pillbox location was introduced to me in a q&a
A7. & B30. Is it allowed to fire on the IFT versus a suspected but unknown pseudo location in order to reveal a potential unknown pillbox? With revelation only occurring should such fire be through a CA facing and achieving a PTC or better.
A. Yes to both.
But from here you are on your own for the mechanics. For instance based on this it looks as though IFT against the NCA will not reveal the pillbox, even if declared against a hypothetical pillbox. To me it would seem that the defender is using the pillbox TEM even though keeping the pillbox HIP makes "reality sense". And you and your opponent must come up with a default location (pillbox or not, when there are non-HIP units in the hex or not) if no location is declared, or must agree that there is no default and all attacks must be fully-specified.

Note that even vs. a HIP, hypothetical pillbox IFT FP is not halved.

JR
 

mgmasl

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..
Note that even vs. a HIP, hypothetical pillbox IFT FP is not halved.
..
This is surely the maximun "aberration" I´ve ever seen playing this game.. How is posible to fire at exactly the same effectivity vs a hidden pillbox -ie no idea where those f.. units are in the full concealment terrain hex- than vs an absolutely Known and identified one?

IMHO the answer at the question has to be a clear NO and changed to something similar to "only if by firing as Area Fire to the hex and adding the CA TEM gets any result"
In any scenarios where pillbox positions need to occupy key hexes, this rule interpretation kills absolutely the scenario helping absolutely to the attacker.. I really think this answer kills any scenario vs hidden pillbox helping excesively the attackers, specially to super FP american OBs vs japanese.. I personally decided not to play any jap scenario with japs if my opponent -attacking or defending- agree with this rule nor any suicide creek scenario/CG.

Of course, my absolute personal point of view, but I really hope ASL gurus will find time enough to redo the answer..

Fortunately.. lot of scenarios without hidden pillbox to play.
 

MajorDomo

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You fire into a hex at a possible HIP pillbox location containing a HIP (or concealed or not concealed squad) through the NCA.

You roll a result on the IFT if the pillbox were not present.

What should the pillbox owner say?
A. Your shot was disallowed because through NCA.
B. Your shot had no effect, you figure it out.

I would go with A. If you choose B, and the contents were HIP, the shooter could not figure it out as he does know if there is nothing there or if there is HIP squad present.

I would also think that the pillbox NCA was used and thus the pillbox should be revealed ( but not any HIP units therein).

Is that how you guys play it?
 
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jrv

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I think firing at a HIP pillbox location is so absurd that it ought not to be allowed, especially against the Japanese. No unit would fire its ammo load over a 40m hex hoping to hit a six-inch slit. And somehow unerringly hitting it. When you hear of units spraying everywhere, it's against treetops looking for "snipers".

JR
 

jrv

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You fire into a hex at a possible HIP pillbox location containing a HIP (or concealed or not concealed squad) through the NCA.

You roll a result on the IFT if the pillbox were not present.

What should the pillbox owner say?
A. Your shot was disallowed because through NCA.
B. Your shot had no effect, you figure it out.
I go with B. I think the notion of firing into hypothetical pillboxes is so absurd that it ought not to be allowed, unless the other bizarre combination occurs, where a HIP pillbox gets un-HIP contents.

JR
 

Eagle4ty

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IMHO the separate location of a PB is one of the dumbest things propagated in the ASLRB. A PB/bunker is simply a building existing within the hex, treat it as such! As it is One could make the same argument for units IN a trench, foxholes or a building at ground level as units are actually in these "locations" as well but not called "separate locations" for whatever reason. As for revealing a HIP PB simply because its TEM is used to make an attack NE, simply do away with such nonsense! I understand the "game mechanic" of being able to discover a HIP PB but I would have thought it would have been better if the units IN the PB had suffered a result based upon the fire into the hex the PB would then be revealed as having effected an actual result (quite similar to Rich's choice B), a game mechanic more than a simulation of reality. Would it be actually be accurate to reveal a PB in such a fashion in reality? NO, but as a game mechanic it would have worked more seamlessly and kept the rules for firing at "buildings" more consistent. The game, and especially use of HIP items, is based upon trust between players but the rules seems to flip-flop between calling for trust and considering players as cheaters.
 

Mister T

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IMHO the separate location of a PB is one of the dumbest things propagated in the ASLRB.
No it's a good concept as for instance it prevents pillbox freezing and FL cancellation.

It's just that we need a erratum to handle this issue that has been identified for years now.
 

mgmasl

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Also units inside PB are kept out of any melee in the PB hex..
 
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