HIP AA Gun and Bypass

[djohannsen]

I'm sorry to keep coming here with rules questions, but I'm a new player trying to learn my way...

In a recent play with a friend, the following situation arose. I had an AA gun and crew HIP in a building location. My opponent moved in bypass into the hex. At the time of the playing I revealed my gun and bounced his unit. I now know that this was wrong. Correct would have been either to keep my concealment and let him move right through the hex or (and here is where the questions come) I could have revealed my unit and fired in the same hex. With some reading of the rule book after the fact, I now think that the crew could have fired at TPBF with -2 DRM (FFNAM and FFMO) as the rule mentions "infantry" units. The questions pertain to whether I could have fired IFE with the AA gun? In particular, would the AA gun have been able to shoot TPBF (using IFE) and how does CA work for IFE in the same hex?

In fact, IFE from those guns that have it always confuses me a bit, as many ways it is treated like a SW but not in others. For example, I am still not completely sure if IFE is doubled for PBF (though I think that it is). Also, I think guns using IFE can SFF or FPF, but again not sure.

Anyway, I don't mean to take this too far afield. If someone can help me understand options for a HIP (AA) gun being bypassed, I would be grateful.

Dave

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Yes, the Gun could have used IFE, though its CA would have had to have hexside the enemy entered across, so if you had to change to CA of the Gun, the DRM from that would be doubled. So shooting the crew at (probably) 6 FP, DRM -2 might be a better deal.

It depends of what type of AA Gun it was and how it was positioned.

 

[clubby]

7.21 POINT BLANK FIRE (PBF): The Small-Arms/MG/ATR/IFE FP of an attacking unit is doubled while either ADJACENT to its target or adjacent to and either within one level of or higher than its targe If adjacent but without a LOS to it (such as units IN non-connecting gully hexes 12AA5 and BB4) no attack can be made. On those rare instances when fire attacks are allowed vs units in the same Location as the attacker or vs PRC in the same hex (7.211), the FP of the attacking unit is tripled (hereafter referred to as TPBF).

 

[clubby]

Yes, the Gun could have used IFE, though its CA would have had to have hexside the enemy entered across, so if you had to change to CA of the Gun, the DRM from that would be doubled. So shooting the crew at (probably) 6 FP, DRM -2 might be a better deal.

It depends of what type of AA Gun it was and how it was positioned.

Does Case E +2 not apply in this situation klas?

 

[jrv]

Per A12.151 the HIP unit could keep its HIP if it desired because the moving unit entered in bypass. I believe the HIP unit can be revealed before the moving unit enters to prevent entry, but once the moving unit enters, revealing the HIP unit does not "bounce" the moving unit back. To target the bypassing unit you trace LOS to one of the hexside vertices, so that may require a CA change for the AA Gun. Because the Gun is in a building, any CA change DRM would be doubled [C5.11]. The crew could instead use its inherent FP. Per A7.21 PBF & TPBF apply to IFE attacks.

JR

 

[jrv]

Does Case E +2 not apply in this situation klas?

Case E is a TH DRM. IFE does not use TH.

JR

 

[bendizoid]

Some kinds of AA guns can't go in buildings. Yes, your IFE is doubled(or tripled for in hex) but you ROF goes down by one when you use IFE.

 

[clubby]

Oh, I misread what he was saying. I thought he was saying it would be better to fire it as ordnance rather than IFE. My mistake for not reading better.

 

[djohannsen]

Klas, Clubby, and JR, thank you I really appreciate your help in learning the game. Though I don't think that it matters in this context, the AA gun in question is the German FlaK 30 (we were playing Wise's War from Action Pack #12).

Dave

 

[jrv]

Some kinds of AA guns can't go in buildings.

Yes. In order for an AA Gun to fit into a building it has to be a small target [B23.423]. If you are betting an AA Gun with IFE is more likely to be small than not, but there are some that won't make it through the door. You want to pull out your tape and measure carefully before you bring one home from your local Weapons Depot.

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

...Though I don't think that it matters in this context, the AA gun in question is the German FlaK 30...

I don't think the FlaK 30 can set up in a building.

Even though it is a small target size gun on the Unlimbered side, it is a normal sized on the Limbered side. In order to move it has to be Limbered, and it cannot set up in a Location it cannot enter during play.

C2.7:
"...Small-Target-Size Guns and AT/INF Guns that are not large targets are the only ⅝" non-vehicular Gun counters that may ever occupy a building/rubble hex..."

A2.9:
"A unit/weapon may not set up overstacked or in a hex it could not enter during the normal course of play,..."

C10.3:
"A limbered or QSU Gun [EXC: if having NM or RFNM] can conceivably be pushed..."

 

[Brian W]

Ah the ol' limbered up size difference. That'll getcha.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Ah the ol' limbered up size difference. That'll getcha.

Though the Chinese managed to downsize their version of this Gun when Limbered.

 

[bendizoid]

So the rule is an illegally placed unit is removed from the board, too bad.

 

[jrv]

So the rule is an illegally placed unit is removed from the board, too bad.

No rule that says that. An illegally placed unit gets a hearty "well-done!"

JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

Ouch, & I let two of those buggers get away with it in the same scenario recently played. They hurt me bad too! I should listen to my own advice & pay special attention to the enemy's OB as well.

 

[Mr Incredible]

Ouch, & I let two of those buggers get away with it in the same scenario recently played. They hurt me bad too! I should listen to my own advice & pay special attention to the enemy's OB as well.

Always good just to let your opponent know these less obvious set-up restrictions.

Got done with a German 88 set-up in a building one time. Completely forgot this rule until a turn later.

A.2.

Just wondering what people do in the situation the offending Gun is first found in an illegal location? If friendly, I'll let it slide or maybe magically teleport to the next nearest legal location.

If a tourney, I think people have removed the offending gun from the map.

 

[von Marwitz]

I don't think the FlaK 30 can set up in a building.

Even though it is a small target size gun on the Unlimbered side, it is a normal sized on the Limbered side. In order to move it has to be Limbered, and it cannot set up in a Location it cannot enter during play.

C2.7:
"...Small-Target-Size Guns and AT/INF Guns that are not large targets are the only ⅝" non-vehicular Gun counters that may ever occupy a building/rubble hex..."

A2.9:
"A unit/weapon may not set up overstacked or in a hex it could not enter during the normal course of play,..."

C10.3:
"A limbered or QSU Gun [EXC: if having NM or RFNM] can conceivably be pushed..."

Nice one!

But can these guns concevably set up in a (non-fortified) building?


French #14: Canon de 105L mle 13S
French #12: Canon de 105M mle 28 (no pic)
French #11: Canon de 75 mle 1897 (see brit pic)
French #10: Canon de 75M mle 28
British # 10: Canon de 75 mle 1897
Italian #9: Cannone da 75/27
Italian #17: Cannone-mitragliera da 20/65

I am thinking of having them enter En Portee (C10.5) via a vehicular sized entry into a Factory (i.e. per Road hexide or into a Factory hex with a printed Stairwell) which the portaging Trucks could enter as per B23.742, though risking Bog.

The question is, if under such circumstances, the Guns would be considered "non-vehicular Gun counters" or not per C2.7.

Edit:
Italian #17: Cannone-mitragliera da 20/65 can do the trick in any case, because it's size is small even when limbered not even taking into account En Portee.

von Marwitz

 

[Brian W]

But can these guns concevably set up in a (non-fortified) building?

No, I do not think so. There are two rules, first that a unit cannot set up in a location that it could not conceivable enter. Second, a non-AT/INF gun that is not a small target cannot occupy a building/rubble hex. So, while these guns may be able to enter a factory en portee, they cannot occupy the hex unless they are on the vehicle. That's how I read it.

 

[von Marwitz]

No, I do not think so. There are two rules, first that a unit cannot set up in a location that it could not conceivable enter. Second, a non-AT/INF gun that is not a small target cannot occupy a building/rubble hex. So, while these guns may be able to enter a factory en portee, they cannot occupy the hex unless they are on the vehicle. That's how I read it.

The first rule you quote does not apply in this case I think:

The Truck CAN enter the Factory. The Gun CAN be transported En Portee. A Gun En Portee CAN be unloaded. Thus the Gun CAN conceivably enter the location during the game as per that rule taken by itself.

In the context of this first rule, however, does 'conceivably enter' means within the limits of the OoB for the given scenario? I.e. taken this rule by itself, would the Gun only be able to enter if a suitable Truck is part of the OoB? Or does 'conceivably enter' mean that it could enter by a hypothetical truck that is, however NOT part of the actual OoB?


As for the second rule you quote, you have omitted one part (marked in red):
C2.7:
"...Small-Target-Size Guns and AT/INF Guns that are not large targets are the only ⅝" non-vehicular Gun counters that may ever occupy a building/rubble hex..."

What does 'non-vehicular' mean in this context? Any Gun counter which is not a Vehicle counter? Or Gun counter that is not transported in or towed by a vehicle? Put in other words, what is a 'vehicular Gun counter', which would be allowed to occupy a building?

von Marwitz