Farenhait 9/11

Djordjije

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Andrey said:
Djordjije, do you see it?

Public here speaks that books and movies of Moore are propaganda.

But "CNN" and "Fox News" data are not propaganda for them.

It is impossible to speak with Americans about American propaganda. They do not believe in this because US propaganda learned them to believe that there is no such propaganda - :). Every time when I tried to ask them about it and to discuss concrete things they spoke only slogans like "US mass media are most free mass media all over the world", "America is most free country all over the world" and so on.

In reality books and movies of Michael Moore are not more propaganda than CNN and Fox News.
Andrey I see it!
Yesterday I read what Putin sead to foreign corespondents on their conference in Moskva. He sead everything to their faces (if they have one)!

Americans are trained to think the way they think. For example ? in every their movie, you have to see their flag. It is always about good guys and bad guys; you have tv serias like «AgenCia», «white house, or President», and so on ? it is mostly funny how they insure themselves that they are the best. MM explore that fear in his movies very well.
 

sickpup

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Andrey said:
Djordjije, do you see it?

Public here speaks that books and movies of Moore are propaganda.

But "CNN" and "Fox News" data are not propaganda for them.

It is impossible to speak with Americans about American propaganda. They do not believe in this because US propaganda learned them to believe that there is no such propaganda - :). Every time when I tried to ask them about it and to discuss concrete things they spoke only slogans like "US mass media are most free mass media all over the world", "America is most free country all over the world" and so on.

In reality books and movies of Michael Moore are not more propaganda than CNN and Fox News.
This coming from a guy who hangs on Putin’s every word while ignoring the fact that his nation is fast becoming another dictatorship. Just keep on preaching about American propaganda…
 

piero1971

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B5C said:
They dis-owned him. Since the Bin Laden family didnt want to get in trouble with the Saudi Royal family.
wait. In Saudi culture, no one disows a male member of their family....

the bin ladens cannot get in trouble with he house of Saud. they are interlinked with it....

Saudis do not want the US interest... but while Saudi Arabia has been supporting terrorism for years, because they are friends with some, aheam, well connected, people in the US, the US does not consider Saudi a problem, (and neither pakistan) but goes on to Iraq... he he... as we say in business, connection, connection, connection.... ;)
 

MountainMan

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Like it or not, and most brain-washed Americans clearly don't, Michael Moore made us take a good, long look at ourselves in the mirror.

Most of the anger, hatred and disgust generated by F9/11 is, in reality anger, hatred and disgust at ourselves and what we have become. It's just easier to blame Moore than to point a finger at the true culprits.

It is a fact that Bush was the man in charge of everything including national security when the greatest breach in national security in the history of America took place, over three thousand Americans killed by 19 guys with box cutters. and it is a fact that the nation most responsible, Saudi Arabia, is a business partner of that same president and has yet to be indicted or punished for its crimes against us...by the same president.

It is also a fact that the Iraqi war has nothing at all to do with any of the reasons given for it when it was begun, and that it is now being touted by the same president who failed us as the greatest single reason to re-elect him.

It isn't about Michael Moore; it's about us and what we have become.
 

Aries

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Hmm I have to look at the name more often and not always the avatar heheh, Welcome Mountain Man. I thought that post sounded like you somehow :)
 

Richa333

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MountainMan said:
Like it or not, and most brain-washed Americans clearly don't, Michael Moore made us take a good, long look at ourselves in the mirror.
Except that Michael Moore's mirror is bent, flawed, cracked & broken so that we don't really see ourselves, we see Michael's version...
Most of the anger, hatred and disgust generated by F9/11 is, in reality anger, hatred and disgust at ourselves and what we have become. It's just easier to blame Moore than to point a finger at the true culprits.
Actually my anger, hatred & disgust is #1 for the terrorists & #2 for people who swallow drivel down & don't bother to actually look at facts & think for themselves. ;)
It is a fact that Bush was the man in charge of everything including national security when the greatest breach in national security in the history of America took place, over three thousand Americans killed by 19 guys with box cutters. and it is a fact that the nation most responsible, Saudi Arabia, is a business partner of that same president and has yet to be indicted or punished for its crimes against us...by the same president.
It's also a fact that the ACTUAL American policies that led to 9/11 were carried out by...President Clinton! (President Bush had been 8 months in office; his policies had barely begun.)
It is also a fact that the Iraqi war has nothing at all to do with any of the reasons given for it when it was begun, and that it is now being touted by the same president who failed us as the greatest single reason to re-elect him.
I'm tired of posting "The List" so I won't even bother this time. But for all the 'regulars' out there, you know what "The List" is and who is on it.
It isn't about Michael Moore; it's about us and what we have become.
No, it really is about Michael Moore, and what a disgusting money-grubber perverter of truth he is.

NOTE to Andrey & DJ: Again the accusations that we're all blind fools swallowing whatever the media tells us!!! Well, you're back to your European Debate style, so I'll just throw these few items at you:

--NUMBER OF RUSSIAN GOVERNMENTS OVERTHROWN BY MEDIA: Zero. None, nothing, not one. Russian 'reform' of early '90's was supported by the people; media organizations were occupied by armed forces -- some for the old regime, more for the new.

--NUMBER OF AMERICAN GOVERNMENTS OVERTHROWN BY MEDIA: 1. One. President Nixon of the mid-1970's was forced to resign after the Washington Post & NY Times exposed a scandal called 'Watergate.'

--NUMBER OF MEDIA CONTROLLED BY AMERICAN GOVERNMENT: 1. It's called "Voice of America" and is controlled by the government.

--NUMBER OF MEDIA NOT CONTROLLED BY AMERICAN GOVERNMENT: Over 10,000 news organizations including news papers, radio & TV.

One final point: don't think that just because that most of us don't prefer a European debate, we wouldn't win it! ;)

And about Michael Moore: As just one example of what he does, he claims that special privileges were given after 9/11 to the Bin Laden family. What actually happened is that:
(1) The Bin Laden family traveled only AFTER the federal authorities allowed ALL commercial air flights to resume.
(2) The Bin Laden family was checked to see if they included any terrorists.

This goes to the heart of Michael Moore. In his film, he asks "Why did the bin Ladens receive such high government scrutiny?"

And if they hadn't received that attention, Moore would have asked "Why didn't the bin Ladens receive high government scrutiny?"

Moore doesn't ask real questions or present truth; he takes the truth, twists it, then asks perverted questions. Moore's films attack character without adding anything of value. Moore's arguments are like asking, "So when did you stop beating your wife?"

If you want to drink down his American propoganda, you go right ahead. The rest of us will continue to look a wide range of news sources, then use our judgement to make our decisions. :cool:
 

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To Richa333...."the rest of us will continue to look a wide range of news sources".....As I have said before on another thread I was in Europe when this whole mess started and what I saw on European TV over many stations was vastley differant than when I switch to CNN (or Tass as I call it) I wasnt to sure if it was the same war..I spoke with some Spanish TV guys I know and they maintained that everything that was shown on US TV at the time was vetted and controled by the media so as not to show a bad light on the current government.

Since then going on what I have seen and read I have come to the conclusion that the American people are becoming as brain washed and paranoid as the old Russian regime under old Joe Stalin and your present administration seems to work on this with a campaign of fear and "they are coming to get us" scenarios and building the walls higher and the moat deeper and running your deficit into the trillions by the time they are finished

I feel sorry for Americans because what happens to you, effects all of us whether we like it or not.

NO! I have not seen MM,s movie nor want to as enough BS come out of the media as it is.

Bow on the island

per ardua ad astra
 

hogdriver

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Andrey said:
Ok, let's speak about Serb leaders.

Why do you suppose that they are bloody criminals? It is only result of US propaganda. You heard it every day for many years on US TV and read it in US newspapers.

But it looks like all stories about Serb crimes in Cosovo were only one large false in information war. So it is possible that all your data about Serb leaders is one large false also.

Ask Serb about these guys.

You have to study to divide propaganda naked words from concrete proofs and facts.

In US practically all mass media is propaganda, pro-republican mass media speaks good words about Bush, pro-democratic US mass media speaks bad words about Bush.

There are war movies and anti-war movies, it is all propaganda of opinion of movie director and it is well known fact.

Do not show Moore like he does something that differ from actions of others.

May be, Moore is wrong in some cases and his enemies will be happy to find these mistakes. But check all his most significant data and make conclusions on base of these facts like there is no movie of Moore but you know only these facts.

Pull your head out of the sand, Andrey :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 

Andrey

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sickpup said:
This coming from a guy who hangs on Putin’s every word while ignoring the fact that his nation is fast becoming another dictatorship. Just keep on preaching about American propaganda…
I agree with most part of Putin's words.

Your opinion about situation in Russia is based on incorrect reports of Western mass media which shows too primitive picture of events.

Most part of that what Western mass media speak about Russia is complete nonsense, I often read translations of western mass media.

If to see real picture of events in Russia so you will better understand real meaning of Putin's words. But it looks like West has paranoia that Russia wil become dictator country. Every action for increasing of state power and might is considered new attempt to stop democracy in Russia.
 
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Andrey

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Bow said:
To Richa333...."the rest of us will continue to look a wide range of news sources".....As I have said before on another thread I was in Europe when this whole mess started and what I saw on European TV over many stations was vastley differant than when I switch to CNN (or Tass as I call it) I wasnt to sure if it was the same war..I spoke with some Spanish TV guys I know and they maintained that everything that was shown on US TV at the time was vetted and controled by the media so as not to show a bad light on the current government.

Since then going on what I have seen and read I have come to the conclusion that the American people are becoming as brain washed and paranoid as the old Russian regime under old Joe Stalin and your present administration seems to work on this with a campaign of fear and "they are coming to get us" scenarios and building the walls higher and the moat deeper and running your deficit into the trillions by the time they are finished

I feel sorry for Americans because what happens to you, effects all of us whether we like it or not.

NO! I have not seen MM,s movie nor want to as enough BS come out of the media as it is.

Bow on the island

per ardua ad astra

Very excellent words, I meant the same.
 

Priest

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I Caught Moore's appearance on "The View" while he wa promoting hid book "Dude, Where's my Country" (real originality here :halo: ). Man those women ripped him a new one, by the time they were finished with him he was weeping like a little girl. There is a God after all :D
 

pp(est)

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Bow said:
To Richa333...."the rest of us will continue to look a wide range of news sources".....As I have said before on another thread I was in Europe when this whole mess started and what I saw on European TV over many stations was vastley differant than when I switch to CNN (or Tass as I call it) I wasnt to sure if it was the same war..I spoke with some Spanish TV guys I know and they maintained that everything that was shown on US TV at the time was vetted and controled by the media so as not to show a bad light on the current government.
The US government does not control CNN nor any other major Media in the US. OTOH in Europe most governments do control at least one major media organisation. Although generally the majority of media is not government controlled, most European countries have their version of BBC - for example in Finland out of four major TV channels two are government controlled, in Estonia one out of three major TV channels is government controlled. Note that the government control on these countries usually does not extend to censoring news or other programming and is usually there to ensure that local culture has some air time. If you go east of EU you get states there all or by far the majority of media is controlled by the government and the control exercised by the government there is very different than the control exercised in the EU (with the major exception of Italy where the developments should be a matter of concern).

The reason why the news from different countries' non-government controlled media are very different is because the journalists are human and part of the society to whom they report and because media is first and foremost entertainment business. CNN, BBC, Sky, Al-Arabya etc. make news the way they suppose their viewers like them. While none of the mentioned organisations would IMHO intentionally deceive their viewers the stories they air and the angle of the stories is based on the expectations of the viewers. In Europe and middle east people wanted to hear that the coalition will fail miserably in Iraq and that was what the media provided - stories that concentrated on the failures and risks while disregarding the success stories. Foxnews viewers wanted a more optimistic view and that is what they got.

Basically if you want to understand the issues more deeply you can never rely on a single source of information, even if the source is fiercely independent from any government control.
 

piero1971

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pp(est) said:
The US government does not control CNN nor any other major Media in the US.

indeed, it is the other way around... no I'm kidding but there is collusion more and more all over the world btw media/industries/governements and more so in a powerfull country.

I think CNN is pretty on the right wing, so figure what I think of Fox!! (and right does not meen bad in my opinion...) just that the job of journalism (check sources, impartiality, etc.) must either becoming exting or becoming hell.
 

Richa333

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Bow said:
To Richa333...."the rest of us will continue to look a wide range of news sources".....As I have said before on another thread I was in Europe when this whole mess started and what I saw on European TV over many stations was vastley differant than when I switch to CNN (or Tass as I call it) I wasnt to sure if it was the same war..I spoke with some Spanish TV guys I know and they maintained that everything that was shown on US TV at the time was vetted and controled by the media so as not to show a bad light on the current government.

Since then going on what I have seen and read I have come to the conclusion that the American people are becoming as brain washed and paranoid as the old Russian regime under old Joe Stalin and your present administration seems to work on this with a campaign of fear and "they are coming to get us" scenarios and building the walls higher and the moat deeper and running your deficit into the trillions by the time they are finished

I feel sorry for Americans because what happens to you, effects all of us whether we like it or not.

NO! I have not seen MM,s movie nor want to as enough BS come out of the media as it is.

Bow on the island

per ardua ad astra
I did NOT rely on American TV for my information: I was VERY well aware that ALL pictures "from Iraq" were censored by the US Military. Instead, I relied heavily on written reports -- not just from American newspapers, but also Canadian; British; and al-Jazeera (although after about a week I gave that up, their information was useless). As the occupation developed, I widened my sources -- including not just this forum but also friends of mine that were there & came back; blogs; and news sources from Italy & Spain (translated to English).

You're making an assumption that I swallow any drivel down. May I correct you: I hold all news sources to be suspect - because all news sources are humans, and all humans are flawed.

BTW, the American coverage of modern wars is MUCH more open than American coverage of WW II (which was even MORE censored than any current war).
 

Slick

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To understand F9/11, you must remember that Mr. Moore is unquestionably a liberal pacifist in his beliefs. Let me see if I can sum things up from some of my older post:

The four biggest “misconceptions” of Hollywood:

1) Michael Moore’s films are “documentaries”.
2) The Academy Awards are not influenced by money or liberal motivations.
3) Hollywood does not try to promote and advance a liberal ideology in their media.
4) Barbara Streisand (aka B.S.) knows what she’s talking about.


Here is the link to Christopher Hitchens slamming review: http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723
It’s pretty bad when a columnist from Vanity Fair magazine rips a “documentary” to shreds with factual data. My favorite comment of his in regards to Moore’s quotation of George Orwell in the film.

Perhaps vaguely aware that his movie so completely lacks gravitas, Moore concludes with a sonorous reading of some words from George Orwell. The words are taken from “1984” and consist of a third-person analysis of a hypothetical, endless, and contrived war between three superpowers. The clear intention, as clumsily excerpted like this (...) is to suggest that there is no moral distinction between the United States, the Taliban, and the Baath Party and that the war against jihad is about nothing. If Moore had studied a bit more, or at all, he could have read Orwell really saying, and in his own voice, the following:

“The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States …”
And that's just from George Orwell's Notes on Nationalism in May 1945. A short word of advice: In general, it's highly unwise to quote Orwell if you are already way out of your depth on the question of moral equivalence. It's also incautious to remind people of Orwell if you are engaged in a sophomoric celluloid rewriting of recent history.
 

purdyrc

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Marines said:
Michael Moore doesn't actually lie all the time in his films but he does take to truth and stretch it. One portion of F9/11 that comes to mind is the scene in which he is standing outside the Saudi embassy in D.C. He begins his monologue with commentary about the Uniformed Secret Service Division and how they are guarding this embassy when they shouldn't be and how they are spying on him.

A simple Google search a mere minute of his time would have revealed the information he desired. The USSD's mission is to guard the White House grounds, Treasury Department buildings and foreign EMBASSIES on US soil. He attempts to make the viewers believe there is some sort of conspiracy afoot and that the Bush administration is out to get him. :rolleyes:
Moore's accusation (which is incorrect) is based on a direct comment from the Uniformed Secret Service guard commander right in front of the embassy. Moore asks him, "Does the secret service guard embassies?" (or something to that effect), and the agent replied, "No, not usually." Maybe it was Moore's luck that he got an uninformed Secret Service agent, but I think any lay person would be correct in assuming that a uniformed Secret Service commander would know what he was talking about in this case.

- Rick
 

purdyrc

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B5C said:
They dis-owned him. Since the Bin Laden family didnt want to get in trouble with the Saudi Royal family.
Members of the bin Laden family here in the US attended bin Laden's oldest son's wedding in Afghanistan earlier in 2001. A wedding also attended by Osama himself.

There were at least some connections to bin Laden and a good question needs to be, why wasn't it looked into before 9/11.

Another good question would be, "Why were these same people allowed to leave the country without being questioned by the FBI?" Moore asks this question. Sadly, still no response from the Administration.

- Rick
 
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CyberRanger

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purdyrc said:
Another good question would be, "Why were these same people allowed to leave the country without being questioned by the FBI?" Moore asks this question. Sadly, still no response from the Administration.

- Rick
No ... it's not a good question. The FBI DID question the members of the family. Start from the beginning of this thread and you'll see that. Here's one post where I discuss that issue. There are more.
 

purdyrc

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WestPointer said:
No ... it's not a good question. The FBI DID question the members of the family. Start from the beginning of this thread and you'll see that. Here's one post where I discuss that issue. There are more.
Some of these people had just seen Osama a few months prior. Why weren't they subjected to more detailed scrutiny? Why were they hustled out of the country so quickly?

- Rick
 
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piero1971

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do we have data on how many middle-eastern people got unde rarrest after 9/11 instead of beeing allowed to leave the country.

piero
 
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