Farenhait 9/11

CPangracs

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WestPointer said:
I totally agree. US citizens should be calling for justice (a speedy trial, charges at least) or freedom for these individuals.
Okay, so, you suggest we apply judicial standards, reserved for US citizens, to POW's?

Be careful what you ask for, because then we will almost certainly have to agree to allow our soldiers and POW's to be treated the same around the world.

Does that make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside? It doesn't do a thing for me, personally.
 

Andrey

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purdyrc said:
Go to www.MichaelMoore.com and click on the "Facts of F9/11" link. You'll see a line-by-line fact and footnote of the movie with links to source documents as appropriate.

- Rick
Thanks,Rick.

I shall read it.

And I hope that oter Americans will read it also.
 

CyberRanger

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Andrey said:
Thanks,Rick.

I shall read it.

And I hope that oter Americans will read it also.
I hope NOT. His site is the same mix of left out information and out of context quoutes/images as the movie.
 

CyberRanger

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CPangracs said:
Okay, so, you suggest we apply judicial standards, reserved for US citizens, to POW's?

Be careful what you ask for, because then we will almost certainly have to agree to allow our soldiers and POW's to be treated the same around the world.

Does that make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside? It doesn't do a thing for me, personally.
POW's???? How can they be POW's when we have no declared war? Seriously though ... are we just going to keep them there forever? If they are POW's, and if Iraq and Afghanistan are now liberated, shouldn't these POW's either be charged as war criminals or returned to their respective homelands?

Talk about a breeding ground for future terrorist. If they weren't, they will be soon.
 

purdyrc

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WestPointer said:
I hope NOT. His site is the same mix of left out information and out of context quoutes/images as the movie.
I referenced the site so others can research the claims Moore makes and then come to their own conclusions about it.

Like it or not, Moores claims have a factual basis. We can disagree about the conclusions he draws, but the facts are researched and vetted by a small army of lawyers.

www.MichaelMoore.com is a useful tool and will help those wanting to do their own research. The source material is impartial and completely non-partisan. Even if you don't like Moore, you can at least thank him for collecting this information in one place.

Use these facts and then draw your own conclusions.

- Rick
 

CPangracs

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WestPointer said:
POW's???? How can they be POW's when we have no declared war? Seriously though ... are we just going to keep them there forever? If they are POW's, and if Iraq and Afghanistan are now liberated, shouldn't these POW's either be charged as war criminals or returned to their respective homelands?

Talk about a breeding ground for future terrorist. If they weren't, they will be soon.
Are they not POW's? Is the war in Iraq over? Is the war on terror over? Sorry, but the answers are Yes, No, and No. there is STILL a war in Afghanistan, to certain extent as to how it pertains to a war on terror.

The people in Guantanamo are a mix from all over, and are there because the took-up arms against the US and the coalition. Many of them also have essential info on terrorist operations. I believe we will keep them as long as needed.

They are NOT US citizens, therefore they are NOT guaranteed a speedy trial. Many of them ARE sworn enemies of the US, and should be treated as such.

Don't worry, they are being fed good food, clothed, allowed to worship as they wish, allowed to bathe,...nay, forced to bathe on a regular basis. They have more rights and goodies than they did as member of the Taliban, al Queda, or Saddam's Fedayeen.

You should be happy for them. They are also out of harm's way, so you know they won't bekilled on the battlefield, or, more importantly, kill any of our troops on the battlefield.;)
 

CyberRanger

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CPangracs said:
Are they not POW's? Is the war in Iraq over? Is the war on terror over? Sorry, but the answers are Yes, No, and No. there is STILL a war in Afghanistan, to certain extent as to how it pertains to a war on terror.
I understand all that ... but the war on terror will never be over (how can it be when it's never been declared?). So what do we do with them?

(Sorry ... I know this isn't the point of this thread! But, the situation down there bothers me. I served my country, but this strikes me as unjust means [the Gitmo camp] being used for a just cause. Sure they are feed, etc ... but they are still prisoners.)
 

Djordjije

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Ej,
WestPointer

"I understand all that ... but the war on terror will never be over (how can it be when it's never been declared?). So what do we do with them?"
It is not the question what you have to do with them, its - What should They do with You? I wish them luck in Iraq! If we think about same people offcourse...
 

Richa333

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I've just ordered a new mocumentary: "Unfairenhype9/11" or something like that, it's a rebuttal of Moore's junk. I'll let you guys know what's it like, then I can challenge you to buy it before you make any negative comments about it...Wheeee! ;)
 

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I finished to look "Fahrenheit 9/11" 20 minutes ago...

It is great.

America has to be proud that guys like Michael Moore are Americans...
 

CPangracs

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Andrey said:
I finished to look "Fahrenheit 9/11" 20 minutes ago...

It is great.

America has to be proud that guys like Michael Moore are Americans...
I just finished reading Stalin's biography. You should be proud that he was a Russian...
 

Crash

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CPangracs said:
They are NOT US citizens, therefore they are NOT guaranteed a speedy trial.
It has nothing to do with being US citizens or not. The US signed the Geneva Convention and is bound by it.

It seems the US is attempting to circumvent the convention by labeling the detainees as 'unlawful combatants', since POW's have to be afforded the same rights as US soldiers.

CPangracs said:
Don't worry, they are being fed good food, clothed, allowed to worship as they wish, allowed to bathe,...
You can't claim the moral high ground in one section while totally disregarding the others. At the end of the day I'd take a closer look at that Patriot Act. :shock:
 

Richa333

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Crash said:
It has nothing to do with being US citizens or not. The US signed the Geneva Convention and is bound by it.

It seems the US is attempting to circumvent the convention by labeling the detainees as 'unlawful combatants', since POW's have to be afforded the same rights as US soldiers.



You can't claim the moral high ground in one section while totally disregarding the others. At the end of the day I'd take a closer look at that Patriot Act. :shock:
Whoa, Crash, back that horse up!

IF the Gitmo prisoners are actually POW's (& I do NOT think that all of them are),

THEN they get NO trial. None. Zippo! Diddly!! No hearing, no lawyers, no nuthin'. In a war, the only trial that a POW gets, is a courts-martial for criminal acts conducted against the norms of military justice. Access to Red Cross is something that all POWs are supposed to get, and the Gitmo POWs are. But a trial? Access to lawyers? Nope, not in a war.

'Higher moral ground' -- What I do know is, we're just about a gazillion times better at POW treatment than the terrorists. How many heads we cut off lately? NONE. Some bad American soldiers killed a few prisoners, and the killers are on trial. How many terrorists are on trial for sawing off heads? None.

Yes, we do have the higher moral ground.
 

Crash

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Richa333 said:
THEN they get NO trial. None. Zippo! Diddly!! No hearing, no lawyers, no nuthin'.
If they are POW's then Gitmo should ONLY be populated with POW's charged with crimes since military operations have ceased. These POW's do have rights afforded a US soldier which includes a speedy trial.

As I understand the convention, detainees are ipso facto given POW status regardless what the detaining country believes. In order to change this status a person has to face a competent tribunal to determine whether or not they are in fact POW's. This is another spot where timeliness enters the picture.

If they are determined not to be POW's but are tied to 9/11 then they should be turned over to Afghan authorities as per GC IV and face extradition.

At any rate, no matter how you view it the individual is covered by international law.

Richa333 said:
Some bad American soldiers killed a few prisoners, and the killers are on trial.
The US has tortured and killed prisoners but at least they didn't cut their heads off. Is that your argument? Let me check the Convention and get back to you on that :rolleyes:

The beheadings are not being conducted by a government agency.
 
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purdyrc

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Richa333 said:
IF the Gitmo prisoners are actually POW's (& I do NOT think that all of them are),

THEN they get NO trial. None. Zippo! Diddly!! No hearing, no lawyers, no nuthin'. In a war, the only trial that a POW gets, is a courts-martial for criminal acts conducted against the norms of military justice. Access to Red Cross is something that all POWs are supposed to get, and the Gitmo POWs are. But a trial? Access to lawyers? Nope, not in a war.

'Higher moral ground' -- What I do know is, we're just about a gazillion times better at POW treatment than the terrorists. How many heads we cut off lately? NONE. Some bad American soldiers killed a few prisoners, and the killers are on trial. How many terrorists are on trial for sawing off heads? None.

Yes, we do have the higher moral ground.
The Gitmo prisoners are officially nothing. That's the problem. They have the nebulous tag of "enemy combatants" which means....what exactly? They have not been afforded visitations under the terms of the Geneva Convention and there are allegations surfacing (because we are starting to release some of them) that torture did, in fact, take place there (see the Ashcroft memo to refute the claims of "torture").

And there was a great article in the Washigton Post again today that told the story of one of these enemy combatants who was recently released. It seems that his affiliation with any armed forces was when he was picked up in Afghanistan was in question. They couldn't find any evidence he belonged to the Taliban or al-Queda. Well, now that he's been released after 2 years of dubious incarceration, he's decided to affiliate himself with the reformed al-Quaeda in Pakistan.

So here we have a guy who may have been turned over to the US military in 2002 by someone from his town that just didn't like him, he spends two years as a "guest" of the US being tortured to no effect, is released because we finally decide there was no justification to hold onto him in the first place, we ship him home, and the first thing he does is take up arms against us and kidnap two Chinese contractors working on a dam. There's your "Bush Doctrine" at work.

- Rick
 

chrisvalla

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Well, if anything maybe Gitmo and the 'enemy combatants' will get some parts of the GC re-written... not likely but at least it points out the flaws in it that didn't really exist when it was assumed fighting would be doe between nation-states.

But, I'm also sure we'd like to keep in place the way it is for the time being that way we CAN operate in a limbo state.
 
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