Does the Lee use the Green Grant gun 75 TK #

[Larry]

Because it not Grant ....

 

[King Scott II]

Lawyers...sheesh...

If we can use real world reasoning...the only difference between the two is the turret (radio arrangement), both had the exact same ordnance onboard. I would say that the Lee should also use the Grant 75 TK#.

Semper Fi!
Scott

 

[EagleIV]

The TK table doesn't say "Grant", it says "Grant Gun" which means any M3 with that Gun.

 

[Larry]

Is a grant gun on a vehicle other than a grant? It is not defined.

 

[PresterJohn]

Evidently there were two 75s used in the M3 medium tanks. A short barrelled version sometimes seen with a counterweight on the end of the barrel, and a longer barrelled version used in later models.

 

[Larry]

and he didn't hit the stug anyway

 

[Larry]

The BFP version of the Lee has several differences, no S, no C, and does not list red TH #'s. I think all of those were intentional. The question that isn't in the notes, largely irrelevant now, does the Lee have a Grant Gun.

Damn lawyers.

 

[EagleIV]

Reading British vehicle note 11 (which applies to both the Grant and Lee) implies that they both use the same Gun design and except for the turret design are otherwise the same.

 

[Larry]

I understand what you are saying. The M3 Medium Tank in the Russian note 49 does not reference the Grant gun. The update references US note 7 and British note 11, but not Grant gun.

US note 7 - does not mention the grant gun.

British note 11 - describes the Grant and the Lee.

This they named the “Grant”, while
“Lee” was used for the standard versions of the M3 series (which
were Lend-Leased somewhat later).

The question of whether the standard version which were lend-leased somewhat later had better AP 75mm rounds is not obvious. If the TK table said "M3 MT gun" instead of "Grant Gun" there would be no question. If the phrase "Grant gun" were defined as relevant to the M3 MT in all variants, there would be no question. US note 7 and Russian note 49 make no reference to the Grant or the Grant gun. That is where my scratching starts and ends.

 

[apbills]

I think the real comparison should be between the Sherman 75 and whatever gun versions were on the Grant/Lee tanks. I don't have an answer, but that is the real difference. Was there a gun mounted on the Grant/Lee that was capable of firing an AP round with the same penetration capability as the Sherman's 75mm weapon?

 

[Actionjick]

I think the real comparison should be between the Sherman 75 and whatever gun versions were on the Grant/Lee tanks. I don't have an answer, but that is the real difference. Was there a gun mounted on the Grant/Lee that was capable of firing an AP round with the same penetration capability as the Sherman's 75mm weapon?

A question like this is when we really miss Paul Weir. What a resource he was. RIP Paul.

 

[PresterJohn]

The Chieftan has a review of the M3 Medium tank and mentioned the 75 mm M2 and longer M3 versions so there are two different 75 mm guns used on the M3 Medium. He also made some interesting comments about the 75 mm ammunition.

 

[Vinnie]

Pretty sure this came up before and Paul said the two vehicles had 2 differentb75mm guns.

 

[Vinnie]

Lee M3(a) 75 gun TK

In the C7.31 AP to kill Table the 75 Grant gun has a TK of 13 - does this apply to the Lee gun too ? I assume it does since only the turrets differ, but I can't find any reference. Michael

www.gamesquad.com

I think Paul's discipussion is now gone.

 

[Robin Reeve]

What if Grant simply meant Grant - and not M3 or Lee?

 

[Actionjick]

Lee M3(a) 75 gun TK

In the C7.31 AP to kill Table the 75 Grant gun has a TK of 13 - does this apply to the Lee gun too ? I assume it does since only the turrets differ, but I can't find any reference. Michael

www.gamesquad.com

I think Paul's discipussion is now gone.

Damn that's sad. I wish we could access his old posts. I absolutely loved Da Paul Challenge thread.

 

[bendizoid]

Feel safe to say they are the same. The British changed the turret not the 75mm sponson gun. Still, the 75 is a huge leap in firepower compared to the typical MA on a British tank at the time of its introduction: the 40L.

 

[Yuri0352]

The specific TK numbers for the Grant tank's 75mm gun are due to this version of the M3 medium tank (the British Grant) having been manufactured with the M2 75mm weapon, which had a muzzle velocity of approximately 1850 fps. This gun was chambered to use the standard 75mm ammunition as the M1897 75mm artillery piece (the famous French 75 of WWI).

In the case of the M3 Lee tank, the early versions were produced with the aforementioned M2 75mm weapon. Later production variants of the basic M3 Lee were equipped with the longer barreled M3 75mm gun, which is basically the same weapon as installed on the M4 Sherman tank. The M3 75mm gun is listed as having a muzzle velocity for the AP round of 2031 fps. The Lee was produced in several variants, M3 through M3A5, and both the M2 and M3 75mm weapons can be seen installed on some of these variants.

In ASL terms, regarding the 'Grant gun', COWTRA.
The M2 75mm gun on the M3 Grant is not the same as the M3 75mm gun which is installed on some of the versions of the M3 Lee tank. The M3 75mm gun equipped Lee tanks should have the same basic AP TK number as the early M4 Sherman series.

Chapter H does not specifically address the different versions of the 75mm gun on the M3 Lee tanks (and both of these weapon's apparently different AP TK values). Unless there is a forthcoming update to Chapter H and/or updated information on some of the M3 Lee counters, perhaps the only way to identify certain M3 Lee tanks as having the higher velocity M3 75mm gun would be an SSR for a given scenario.

On an interesting side note for scenario designers who would like to complicate the 'Grant gun' issue even further...
In 1942, during the North African campaign, members of the British army ordnance corps converted approximately 15,000 rounds of 75mm 'Grant gun' ammunition by replacing the US AP projectiles with the projectiles from captured German 7.5 cm KwK L/24 APCBC ammunition. These German projectiles had a base detonating fuse which significantly increased the damage caused by these rounds. Apparently a quantity of this converted 75mm ammunition was provided to British armored units in the weeks just prior to the Gazala battles.

 

[Actionjick]

The specific TK numbers for the Grant tank's 75mm gun are due to this version of the M3 medium tank (the British Grant) having been manufactured with the M2 75mm weapon, which had a muzzle velocity of approximately 1850 fps. This gun was chambered to use the standard 75mm ammunition as the M1897 75mm artillery piece (the famous French 75 of WWI).

In the case of the M3 Lee tank, the early versions were produced with the aforementioned M2 75mm weapon. Later production variants of the basic M3 Lee were equipped with the longer barreled M3 75mm gun, which is basically the same weapon as installed on the M4 Sherman tank. The M3 75mm gun is listed as having a muzzle velocity for the AP round of 2031 fps. The Lee was produced in several variants, M3 through M3A5, and both the M2 and M3 75mm weapons can be seen installed on some of these variants.

In ASL terms, regarding the 'Grant gun', COWTRA.
The M2 75mm gun on the M3 Grant is not the same as the M3 75mm gun which is installed on some of the versions of the M3 Lee tank. The M3 75mm gun equipped Lee tanks should have the same basic AP TK number as the early M4 Sherman series.

Chapter H does not specifically address the different versions of the 75mm gun on the M3 Lee tanks (and both of these weapon's apparently different AP TK values). Unless there is a forthcoming update to Chapter H and/or updated information on some of the M3 Lee counters, perhaps the only way to identify certain M3 Lee tanks as having the higher velocity M3 75mm gun would be an SSR for a given scenario.

On an interesting side note for scenario designers who would like to complicate the 'Grant gun' issue even further...
In 1942, during the North African campaign, members of the British army ordnance corps converted approximately 15,000 rounds of 75mm 'Grant gun' ammunition by replacing the US AP projectiles with the projectiles from captured German 7.5 cm KwK L/24 APCBC ammunition. These German projectiles had a base detonating fuse which significantly increased the damage caused by these rounds. Apparently a quantity of this converted 75mm ammunition was provided to British armored units in the weeks just prior to the Gazala battles.

Nice post. Thanks!

 

[PresterJohn]

The specific TK numbers for the Grant tank's 75mm gun are due to this version of the M3 medium tank (the British Grant) having been manufactured with the M2 75mm weapon, which had a muzzle velocity of approximately 1850 fps. This gun was chambered to use the standard 75mm ammunition as the M1897 75mm artillery piece (the famous French 75 of WWI).

In the case of the M3 Lee tank, the early versions were produced with the aforementioned M2 75mm weapon. Later production variants of the basic M3 Lee were equipped with the longer barreled M3 75mm gun, which is basically the same weapon as installed on the M4 Sherman tank. The M3 75mm gun is listed as having a muzzle velocity for the AP round of 2031 fps. The Lee was produced in several variants, M3 through M3A5, and both the M2 and M3 75mm weapons can be seen installed on some of these variants.

In ASL terms, regarding the 'Grant gun', COWTRA.
The M2 75mm gun on the M3 Grant is not the same as the M3 75mm gun which is installed on some of the versions of the M3 Lee tank. The M3 75mm gun equipped Lee tanks should have the same basic AP TK number as the early M4 Sherman series.

Chapter H does not specifically address the different versions of the 75mm gun on the M3 Lee tanks (and both of these weapon's apparently different AP TK values). Unless there is a forthcoming update to Chapter H and/or updated information on some of the M3 Lee counters, perhaps the only way to identify certain M3 Lee tanks as having the higher velocity M3 75mm gun would be an SSR for a given scenario.

On an interesting side note for scenario designers who would like to complicate the 'Grant gun' issue even further...
In 1942, during the North African campaign, members of the British army ordnance corps converted approximately 15,000 rounds of 75mm 'Grant gun' ammunition by replacing the US AP projectiles with the projectiles from captured German 7.5 cm KwK L/24 APCBC ammunition. These German projectiles had a base detonating fuse which significantly increased the damage caused by these rounds. Apparently a quantity of this converted 75mm ammunition was provided to British armored units in the weeks just prior to the Gazala battles.

Yep. That's the information the Chieftan was referring to in his quite detailed video on the M3 Medium.