Justiciar
Elder Member
But he is so for a just cause.You're a Rebel....
Last edited:
But he is so for a just cause.You're a Rebel....
I hate “just causes” because they generally aren’t either.But he is so for a just cause.
But this one hits two tones.I hate “just causes” because they generally aren’t either.
As I have mentioned before in this forum, two-toned counters are terrible. They are aesthetically displeasing, and they increase the (apparent) mismatch between counter art and counter-die-cutting. At some point they presumably increased costs as well, although perhaps multi-color printing is so common nowadays that this is no longer the case.
The three arguments for two-tone counters are these:
I will address #1 later on.
- There aren't enough colors to make more monotone nationalities, especially if you want to be backwards-compatible with earlier printings, in which there was a lot of change from module to module in, say, the shade of brown used for Russians.
- Two-tone counters allow minor nations to use the support weapons of a major nation, and vice versa.
- Two-tone counters allow minor nations to use the concealment counters of a major nation, which prevents the enemy from distinguishing the two when they are allies. Note that this really only applies to the Hungarians, as all other two-tone nationalities have their own concealment counters. However, conceivably a designer could SSR use of a single concealment counter if US/UN/ROK or NK/Chinese or GMD/Communist forces were allies.
In the case of #2 and #3, it seems worth looking to see whether scenario designers have actually taken advantage of these possibilities. The argument for two-tone counters is stronger or weaker depending on whether or not they have. Gung-Ho introduced the two-tone Chinese in 1992; Armies of Oblivion the two-tone Hungarians in 2006; Festung Budapest the two-tone Buda Volunteer Regiment in 2012; Forgotten War three two-tone nationalities (Post-civil-war Chinese, South Koreans, and UN forces). That's 50 nationality-years of two-tone counters; so, have scenario designers been using these capabilities?
I looked at all of the scenarios in my collection, which includes most MMP scenarios, all the free scenarios I could find online, and the DFTB scenarios. I invite people who are interested to do the tallying for products I don't own, and I'll add them here. I included scenarios in which two-tone counters were used for a different nationality, but I only found a couple of instances of this, in which GMD counters are used for the Thai army. I divided scenarios into 4 classes; a scenario can belong to more than one class.
1) Class A: The two-tone nationality shares concealment counters with its monochrome big brother in a way that could deceive the opponent. So if the scenario includes both German infantry and Hungarian infantry, for example, the scenario is class A. A scenario with Hungarian infantry and German armor would not fall into this category, since there is no room for confusion, as all-and-only the 1/2" counters are known to be Hungarian regardless of how they are concealed.
2) Class B: The two-tone nationality uses a SW, Gun, or AFV from its monochrome big brother as its own. I only included a scenario in this class if a two-tone counter for that SW, etc, does not exist.
3) Class C: The two-tone nationality uses a SW, Gun, or AFV from its monochrome big brother as its own. I only included a scenario in this class if enough two-tone counters for that SW, etc, do not exist in the core module. So if a scenario calls for the PRC to use 12 Russian LMGs, but there are only 8 two-tone Russian LMGs, someone can substitute 4 all-brown Russian LMGs as well. Note that this is only a benefit for physical play, not VASL, which is why I separated it from Class B.
3) Class D: The two-tone nationality's SW, Guns, or AFVs can be used by its monochrome big brother. Note that this is the original justification for two-tone counters given in Footnote G45. I didn't notice any of these scenarios, although they are harder to find just by scrolling through my binder. The obvious place to look would be WW2-era scenarios with the Chinese Communists, but I don't think I actually own any of those.
Note that the totals aren't always the sum of the rows/columns because the same scenario can be in multiple rows and columns.
Nationality Scenarios Class A Class B Class C Class D Total (Classes A-D) GMD 18 0 1 0 0 1 Hungarians 29 15-16* 9 0 0 19 BVR 6 5-6* 6 0 0 6 PRC 8 0 0 1 0 1 ROK 2 0 0 0 0 0 UN 1 0 0 0 0 0 Total 58 16-17* 12 1 0 21
* I wasn't sure whether to count FB14, a three player German-Russian-Hungarian scenario, as Class A or not. It is counted under Class B in both cases, however.
At first glance, this seems like an argument in favor of two-tone counters, as about 1/3 of the scenarios take advantage of the special characteristics of two-tone counters. However, a closer look shows a grimmer picture. Of the 22 scenarios that use two-tone counters, 17 come from Festung Budapest--only 2 scenarios outside of FB have Germans and Hungarians sharing concealment counters. The only scenario outside FB to use German counters in a Hungarian OOB is 115, and in that case, two German tanks are treated as Hungarian, but they enter from offboard, so they may never even conceal, vitiating the advantage. Even in FB, had MMP printed a mere 6 Hungarian-colored counters (3 MMG, 2 LMG, 1 PSK), there would be So, MMP, I beg you, no more two-toned counters, there is no good reason for them. And ideally, future editions of Rising Sun and Forgotten War should be printed in monotone as suggested above. Got it, @Perry?
Yeah, me too.I disagree - I like the look of the two tone colors. i think it adds some flavor to the counter mix.
I just threw up a little bit in my mouth.....is that really a Gremlin?Interesting to see Pitcavage mentioned earlier in the thread. I think he sort of nailed the crux of two tones in his own inimitable style. ?
You don’t two-tone unless you have to.
Boylermaker, The offer from Tuomo to "Join" the most famous of diabolical and secretive society's SHOULD be accept.... Tuomo KNOWS the KHS (aka. "Kwala Hit Squad"). Now that is going back a long while to mention the KHS gang.....All fun aside, if we can harness Boylermaker's energy and organizational skills and redirect them toward something more generally seen as useful, that would be good. I think the VASL Cabal has a place for you, Homes.
I'm thinking Pacer, no? Gremlins had a more vertical back end?I just threw up a little bit in my mouth.....is that really a Gremlin?
Kwala Forever!"Kwala"?
Dude. I know you're from Texas, but that word is only 5 letters long.
Unless it's a new and secret splinter faction of the Koala Hit Squad.
Hmm.
Definitely a Pacer. Party on Wayne!I'm thinking Pacer, no? Gremlins had a more vertical back end?
Pshaw. Get a buncha Ethiopians or some bored Midwestern kids on a Saturday night and it's Flip City.Impossible to flip one of those over, I think.
thunderbolt and lightningDefinitely a Pacer. Party on Wayne!