Corregidor: the Rock CG II Questions

Jon

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In both cases, yes, since the unit is not in the fortified location, you can enter the building. Since a unit in Crest status is one level higher than the bottom of the hex (B20.91), they wouldn't necessarily even be eligible for CC since they aren't in the same location.
This needs clarification as in your answer to question 2 (post 2 of this thread),
http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/ctr-questions-on-gun-batteries-and-powder-magazines.151558/
you state the powder magazine building is NOT a seperate Location.

As an aside, it costs 4MF to enter the Gun battery fortified building,(2MF to enter Gun battery and 2 MF to enter fortified building) so a CX unit in D23 could not advance INTO the Gun battery and into the fortified buliding [A4.72]

And if the C23 building is the same Location as outside the building, it would mean the following is true:
If C23 had a japanese squad in the building and one outside the building (whether in Crest or not), it would mean no US unit could advance into C23 at all, as the Location has a squad in a fortified building.

Persoonally, I think you need a rewrite of this section of the rules, such that the following occurs:
Hex C23 (and the other Gun batteries/powdwer magazines) consists of the following-
  • A Cellar Location with a normal stacking limit of 1 SE (overstacking is NA). may only be attacked by enemy units in the building above or in the Cellar location itsself
  • A stone building Location above the Cellar with a normal stacking limit of 1 SE (overstacking is NA). This Location is Fortified (ie +4 TEM). Treat it as a pillbox with a 360 field of fire. A unit in the fortofoed building may not be attacked (nor itself attack) in CC if there is armed friendly ground unit in hex C23 outside of the building location. (ie as per B30.6). Entering the stone building in the MPh is a seperate MF expenditure from entering INTO the Gun Battery/Mortar Pit
  • A Gun Battery/Mortar Pit Location with a normal stacking limit of 3 SE (overstacking may occur). The units in this Location may be either IN the Gun battery/Mortar pit or a Crest status (or a mix of both)
Cheers
Jon
 

Vinnie

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This needs clarification as in your answer to question 2 (post 2 of this thread),
http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/ctr-questions-on-gun-batteries-and-powder-magazines.151558/
you state the powder magazine building is NOT a seperate Location.

As an aside, it costs 4MF to enter the Gun battery fortified building,(2MF to enter Gun battery and 2 MF to enter fortified building) so a CX unit in D23 could not advance INTO the Gun battery and into the fortified buliding [A4.72]

And if the C23 building is the same Location as outside the building, it would mean the following is true:
If C23 had a japanese squad in the building and one outside the building (whether in Crest or not), it would mean no US unit could advance into C23 at all, as the Location has a squad in a fortified building.

Persoonally, I think you need a rewrite of this section of the rules, such that the following occurs:
Hex C23 (and the other Gun batteries/powdwer magazines) consists of the following-
  • A Cellar Location with a normal stacking limit of 1 SE (overstacking is NA). may only be attacked by enemy units in the building above or in the Cellar location itsself
  • A stone building Location above the Cellar with a normal stacking limit of 1 SE (overstacking is NA). This Location is Fortified (ie +4 TEM). Treat it as a pillbox with a 360 field of fire. A unit in the fortofoed building may not be attacked (nor itself attack) in CC if there is armed friendly ground unit in hex C23 outside of the building location. (ie as per B30.6). Entering the stone building in the MPh is a seperate MF expenditure from entering INTO the Gun Battery/Mortar Pit
  • A Gun Battery/Mortar Pit Location with a normal stacking limit of 3 SE (overstacking may occur). The units in this Location may be either IN the Gun battery/Mortar pit or a Crest status (or a mix of both)
Cheers
Jon
This is a good idea. Currently, if a unit in crest status is jumped by 2 squads and it goes to melee, all 3 squads will lose crest status and end up in the building. This causes some....problems.
 

rreinesch

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This needs clarification as in your answer to question 2 (post 2 of this thread),
http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/ctr-questions-on-gun-batteries-and-powder-magazines.151558/
you state the powder magazine building is NOT a seperate Location.
Correct, that is still the case. The building is NOT like a pillbox that allows you to be in the hex but in a location outside of the pillbox while someone is inside the pillbox at the same time and the two of you are not in the same location. Someone in the building (not in the cellar location) and in the building hex are in the same location (which would apply to the guys in Crest status). On being able to enter the hex, I was initially going by the middle of B20.91 what states, " Infantry in Crest status are considered entrenched one level higher than the Depression against all Direct fire attacks across any of the front three hexsides of that Depression hex (as identified by placement of the Crest counter) which are not crossed by a Depression hexside". However it is not stated here that they are at separate levels. Contrary to my earlier assumption B20.98 states clearly that they are actually in the same location. Now B20.93 allows you to enter the building in the APh since in this instance there is no one in the building at the time (the enemy units are in Crest status, which will also have an impact on the CC DR). And B20.97 is an indicator that the fortified building is IN the depression and not in Crest status with the Japanese Infantry.

As an aside, it costs 4MF to enter the Gun battery fortified building,(2MF to enter Gun battery and 2 MF to enter fortified building) so a CX unit in D23 could not advance INTO the Gun battery and into the fortified buliding [A4.72]
Correct a CX unit could not. A non-CX could enter it as Advance vs Difficult Terrain (A4.72), which means you are now CX, but definitely in the building.

And if the C23 building is the same Location as outside the building, it would mean the following is true:
If C23 had a japanese squad in the building and one outside the building (whether in Crest or not), it would mean no US unit could advance into C23 at all, as the Location has a squad in a fortified building.
Correct. Again, it isn't like a pillbox. It's like any other fortified building that you might want to enter. You'd have to reduce it from an adjacent hex.


Persoonally, I think you need a rewrite of this section of the rules, such that the following occurs:
Hex C23 (and the other Gun batteries/powdwer magazines) consists of the following-
  • A Cellar Location with a normal stacking limit of 1 SE (overstacking is NA). may only be attacked by enemy units in the building above or in the Cellar location itsself
3.3 Already states this.

  • A stone building Location above the Cellar with a normal stacking limit of 1 SE (overstacking is NA). This Location is Fortified (ie +4 TEM). Treat it as a pillbox with a 360 field of fire. A unit in the fortofoed building may not be attacked (nor itself attack) in CC if there is armed friendly ground unit in hex C23 outside of the building location. (ie as per B30.6). Entering the stone building in the MPh is a seperate MF expenditure from entering INTO the Gun Battery/Mortar Pit
It isn't a pillbox, so no need to state to treat it like one. It is fortified building. There is no restrictive arcs for firing from a fortified building, so I don't understand the need to make the analogy to a pillbox with 360 CA. All of what you state is covered very nicely in the fortified building rules. The MF expenditure for entry INTO the Gun Battery/Mortar Pit as a separate MF expenditure is already covered under 2.4. Entry into the Powder magazine is 2MF just like it is for any other building. If an infantry unit wanted to enter the Powder Magazine it would cost 4MF (as you note above). It could not be separated.
  • A Gun Battery/Mortar Pit Location with a normal stacking limit of 3 SE (overstacking may occur). The units in this Location may be either IN the Gun battery/Mortar pit or a Crest status (or a mix of both)
These are normal stacking rules, though. And B20.98 already covers how to handle units both IN the Depression and in Crest status.
 
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rreinesch

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This is a good idea. Currently, if a unit in crest status is jumped by 2 squads and it goes to melee, all 3 squads will lose crest status and end up in the building. This causes some....problems.
One of the 2 friendly squads would have to eliminated.
 
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ASLSARGE

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Some basic misinterpretations here to the Corregidor rules. I have a couple minutes during my lunch break so will try to address some of the issues.

In the example listed above, hexes C23 and D24 both encompass the "gun battery". A unit in D24 is already in the gun battery and does not need to pay 2MF's to "enter" the gun battery. He would need to pay 2MF's to enter the gun battery if he were outside and adjacent to the gun battery (ie: D23). That same unit would pay 2MF's to enter the stone fortified building in C23 (from D24), not 4MF's. The 747 in D24 can see the Japanese unit in Crest status. Since the Japanese unit is not in Concealment terrain he would lose his concealment when the 747 entered his hex. If the 747 advances into the stone building he is in the same hex as the Japanese unit. Reread the descriptions for a gun battery and a powder magazine.
Think of it as being the same situation as if the Japanese unit were in Crest in a gully and the 747 advanced into that same gully hex from an adjacent gully hex.
The Japanese unit in Crest is not in the same "location" as the 747 in the stone building, since the Japanese unit in Crest is one full level higher than the American unit is (see rule 2.1, sentence #3). Units in the same hex that are separated by one full level or more are not considered to be in the same location....that applies in every other ASL terrain type....buildings, and hills with abrupt elevation changes are two examples. Since the two units are not in the same location, they may not enter into Close Combat.....the same as if the 747 were on the ground floor of a building and the Japanese was on the first level......adjacent, yes.....but not in the same location so no C/C until one or the other moves/advances into the other unit's location (the stone building or Crest status in the same hex).
To answer SFiedler's two questions ......1) no, 2) yes.
If the Japanese unit in Crest is real, they are in the path of advance from D23 to C23 so the 747 in D23 would need to enter Crest in C23 and engage the Japanese unit in Close Combat in that Crest location (remember, the entrance for the building is one full level below the Crest level of the hex). If the Japanese units were dummies, the 747 in D23 would have two choices. A) declare he is entering into Crest in C23 (eliminating the dummies) and remain in Crest until next friendly MPh or breaks and routs out of Crest; or B) declares he is Advancing into the C23 building from D23 and when he moves through the Japanese dummies in Crest, eliminates them in the process and continues on into building C23. Of course, if the Japanese were real and the 747 declares he is advancing directly into the building, the 747 will get "bounced back" (and in a world of hurt).
Hope that helps.
 

rreinesch

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Some basic misinterpretations here to the Corregidor rules. I have a couple minutes during my lunch break so will try to address some of the issues.

In the example listed above, hexes C23 and D24 both encompass the "gun battery". A unit in D24 is already in the gun battery and does not need to pay 2MF's to "enter" the gun battery. He would need to pay 2MF's to enter the gun battery if he were outside and adjacent to the gun battery (ie: D23). That same unit would pay 2MF's to enter the stone fortified building in C23 (from D24), not 4MF's. The 747 in D24 can see the Japanese unit in Crest status. Since the Japanese unit is not in Concealment terrain he would lose his concealment when the 747 entered his hex. If the 747 advances into the stone building he is in the same hex as the Japanese unit. Reread the descriptions for a gun battery and a powder magazine.
Think of it as being the same situation as if the Japanese unit were in Crest in a gully and the 747 advanced into that same gully hex from an adjacent gully hex.
The Japanese unit in Crest is not in the same "location" as the 747 in the stone building, since the Japanese unit in Crest is one full level higher than the American unit is (see rule 2.1, sentence #3). Units in the same hex that are separated by one full level or more are not considered to be in the same location....that applies in every other ASL terrain type....buildings, and hills with abrupt elevation changes are two examples. Since the two units are not in the same location, they may not enter into Close Combat.....the same as if the 747 were on the ground floor of a building and the Japanese was on the first level......adjacent, yes.....but not in the same location so no C/C until one or the other moves/advances into the other unit's location (the stone building or Crest status in the same hex).
To answer SFiedler's two questions ......1) no, 2) yes.
If the Japanese unit in Crest is real, they are in the path of advance from D23 to C23 so the 747 in D23 would need to enter Crest in C23 and engage the Japanese unit in Close Combat in that Crest location (remember, the entrance for the building is one full level below the Crest level of the hex). If the Japanese units were dummies, the 747 in D23 would have two choices. A) declare he is entering into Crest in C23 (eliminating the dummies) and remain in Crest until next friendly MPh or breaks and routs out of Crest; or B) declares he is Advancing into the C23 building from D23 and when he moves through the Japanese dummies in Crest, eliminates them in the process and continues on into building C23. Of course, if the Japanese were real and the 747 declares he is advancing directly into the building, the 747 will get "bounced back" (and in a world of hurt).
Hope that helps.
Sarge, reference section B20.9. A unit in Crest status is not indicated as being at a different location than a unit IN the depression hex (specifically B20.98 which deals with Stacking). They might be at different elevations, but they are in the same location. That'll impact CC as well (B20.94).

On the concealment, they would maintain their concealment until they conducted some sort of action, or it was conducted on them, which would otherwise cause the loss of concealment as noted in the loss/gain table (not being in Concealment terrain and in LOS is not one of them).
 
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ASLSARGE

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Sarge, reference section B20.9. A unit in Crest status is not indicated as being at a different location than a unit IN the depression hex (specifically B20.98 which deals with Stacking). They might be at different elevations, but they are in the same location. That'll impact CC as well (B20.94).

On the concealment, they would maintain their concealment until they conducted some sort of action, or it was conducted on them, which would otherwise cause the loss of concealment as noted in the loss/gain table (not being in Concealment terrain and in LOS is not one of them).
While all the above is true for "generic" geo board situations, I beg to differ on the Coors map hexes in question. I would love for someone to prove me wrong on the following; name one "official" geo board (since the rules were written for AH/MMP boards) which has a depression hex (ie: gully, stream, printed trench) which contains a building at the base level of that hex. Lots of hexes with woods/gully, brush/gully, open ground/gully....I think there was even one with crag/gully....but not one building/gully (or substitute stream for gully). When designing Coors I did not find a single one, hence I knew that something different would need to be done to address that, as it was never addressed previously.
Players are free to make their own interpretations as to how to handle the situations discussed, and can reference the "generic" rules in the ASLRB to back up their views as they see fit. I am simply stating the way it was designed and playtested is how I listed it in the previous post.
 

SFiedler

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While all the above is true for "generic" geo board situations, I beg to differ on the Coors map hexes in question. I would love for someone to prove me wrong on the following; name one "official" geo board (since the rules were written for AH/MMP boards) which has a depression hex (ie: gully, stream, printed trench) which contains a building at the base level of that hex. Lots of hexes with woods/gully, brush/gully, open ground/gully....I think there was even one with crag/gully....but not one building/gully (or substitute stream for gully). When designing Coors I did not find a single one, hence I knew that something different would need to be done to address that, as it was never addressed previously.
Players are free to make their own interpretations as to how to handle the situations discussed, and can reference the "generic" rules in the ASLRB to back up their views as they see fit. I am simply stating the way it was designed and playtested is how I listed it in the previous post.
We'll use the designer intentions.

Thanks all
 

Ganjulama

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Hex C23 (and the other Gun batteries/powder magazines) consists of the following-
  • A Cellar Location with a normal stacking limit of 1 SE (over-stacking is NA). may only be attacked by enemy units in the building above or in the Cellar location itsself
  • A stone building Location above the Cellar with a normal stacking limit of 1 SE (overstacking is NA). This Location is Fortified (ie +4 TEM). Treat it as a pillbox with a 360 field of fire. A unit in the fortified building may not be attacked (nor itself attack) in CC if there is armed friendly ground unit in hex C23 outside of the building location. (ie as per B30.6). Entering the stone building in the MPh is a separate MF expenditure from entering INTO the Gun Battery/Mortar Pit
  • A Gun Battery/Mortar Pit Location with a normal stacking limit of 3 SE (over-stacking may occur). The units in this Location may be either IN the Gun battery/Mortar pit or a Crest status (or a mix of both)
Before our CG game we went round and round on how to treat buildings in Gun Batteries. We decided to use Jon's solution with exception that fortified building had staking limit of 3 at ground level.

However, this never came into play because I took every battery except Wheeler and Geary on day 1. When Wheeler fell day 2 this situation never came up.

I'm glad this was clarified. Our CG game is coming down to the wire. See AAR section.
 
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