Contested Lands (1948 Arab Israeli) module

[Neal]

(Stands up)

"I will buy it because I'm an ASL addict."

"Welcome Neal."

(Nods head, sits down)

 

[Jazz]

(Stands up)

"I will buy it because I'm an ASL addict."

"Welcome Neal."

(Nods head, sits down)

Wow, that's beautiful man....<sniff>

 

[PresterJohn]

Deciding to buy now is the logical thing to do. You can cause yourself all sorts of stress related problems worrying about it for the next year.

Authorities should consider a public health message on the subject.

 

[GeorgeBates]

Korea is different as it is a remote theater.

Remote to whom? In what sense?

 

[Jazz]

Remote to whom? In what sense?

Good to see that Americans are not the only ones that think the world revolves around them?

 

[Gunner Scott]

I will wait and see on A&I CL, not alot of people play KWASL not because I think it is beyond the scope of WWII but because it tries to simulate every aspect of the conflict with terrain and nationalities with a crap ton of rules. The early part of KWASL is mobile but once the Norks are crushed by 1951, it just turns into positional warfare ala WW I. Hoards of chinese attacking into machine gun fire rinse and repeat can get old.

The A&I war of 1948 has a lot of potential since the Arabs were trained by the French or British initially so representation should not be complicated. The Israelis are not complicated either since they can be represented as organized Partisans so easy peasy. Unlike Korea where you are fighting on super complicated mountainous terrain, the lands around the fighting for Palestine are desert, city and maybe some euro terrain. So nothing that really needs to be rewritten with ultra complicated rules set. Heck, you can even use whats available in the ASL system and make your own 1948 A&I pack. Use French for the Lebanese and Syrians, British for Egyptian and Jordanians. Maybe Italian counters for Arab irregulars and Iraq forces.

But I get the feeling the KWASL designers will probably try to make the module as complicated as possible since they are not gamers but want to simulate every tiny aspect of the battle, forces and terrain. I hope I am wrong but my feeling is I am not.

 

[Blachorn]

Remote to whom? In what sense?

It was called the forgotten war [although it was never official a war despite certainly looking like one] in the US. It was far away from both Europe and the US who provided the majority of the troops. So yes remote to those nations. ie: distance.

I imagine the same applied to European perspective.

Have to remember the world seemed a lot larger place back in that era.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I will wait and see on A&I CL, not alot of people play KWASL not because I think it is beyond the scope of WWII but because it tries to simulate every aspect of the conflict with terrain and nationalities with a crap ton of rules. ...
But I get the feeling the KWASL designers will probably try to make the module as complicated as possible since they are not gamers but want to simulate every tiny aspect of the battle, forces and terrain. I hope I am wrong but my feeling is I am not.

I have the same concerns as you about excessive chrome requiring extensive additional rules to the system.
I am not sure that the designers aren't gamers, though.
I also don't know anything about that conflict, and if it offers interesting situations at ASL scale - I guess it does.

 

[Mister T]

Remote to whom? In what sense?

You may have noticed that the title of the module was "forgotten war" so there is more emotional distance compared to other theatres of operation, at least to me. It is remote to me, not only geographically but also emotionally. From an Asian perspective, things may be different.

While i am for that reason ready to play Korea even its post-WW2, i still remain to be convinced of the gaming quality of the module. The jury is still on. But this is another discussion.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Half of what I have been playing is Korea. It's a theater that's never forgotten nor remote.

As with all innovations in the world, we have to give it time (and a chance) to pick up. If "not a lot of people play" is a reason to NOT innovate, most industries (and countries) will be dead a long time ago. Besides, while we are throwing unsubstantiated generalizations around, all my opponents are open to playing (and they do play) Korean War, so I see a love for the theater.

What Forgotten Wars did and what Contested Lands will do is to extend the ASL infrastructure out to more grounds where more scenarios and modules may grow. They might not get things right the first time around but they definitely (will) provide frameworks for more and better works to come, on those theaters. I can see more ASL fans drawn in, from all over the world, to play and to innovate, now that there's more available for more people.

Quite honestly, the last thing I want is for designers to churn out the same cookie cutter "simplistic" (if anything in ASL can be called "simplistic") stuff over and over and over again. Don't we have enough of those already?

Heck, there's still a big group of folks out there who choose not to play PTO or DTO because of the perceived complexity of rules. It's their hobby, so it's their call. I don't see any of us mouthing off against new developments in PTO or DTO, do we? It's a big tent, ain't it?

But please, allow those of us who love complexity our share of the hobby. We have a field of "simple" scenarios out there. Let's not kill off innovations just 'cause you choose not to go with it. Nor should we let old fashioned jealousy get the better of us.

If anything, come help with product development, come help playtest! Let's build better and more interesting products for the hobby. Put your "discerning" taste to productive use.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

I will wait and see on A&I CL, not alot of people play KWASL not because I think it is beyond the scope of WWII but because it tries to simulate every aspect of the conflict with terrain and nationalities with a crap ton of rules. The early part of KWASL is mobile but once the Norks are crushed by 1951, it just turns into positional warfare ala WW I. Hoards of chinese attacking into machine gun fire rinse and repeat can get old.

The A&I war of 1948 has a lot of potential since the Arabs were trained by the French or British initially so representation should not be complicated. The Israelis are not complicated either since they can be represented as organized Partisans so easy peasy. Unlike Korea where you are fighting on super complicated mountainous terrain, the lands around the fighting for Palestine are desert, city and maybe some euro terrain. So nothing that really needs to be rewritten with ultra complicated rules set. Heck, you can even use whats available in the ASL system and make your own 1948 A&I pack. Use French for the Lebanese and Syrians, British for Egyptian and Jordanians. Maybe Italian counters for Arab irregulars and Iraq forces.

But I get the feeling the KWASL designers will probably try to make the module as complicated as possible since they are not gamers but want to simulate every tiny aspect of the battle, forces and terrain. I hope I am wrong but my feeling is I am not.

The designers are absolutely gamers. Perhaps with more brain power than some (read: you or I) but they are gamers.

 

[Robin Reeve]

But please, allow those of us who love complexity our share of the hobby. We have a field of "simple" scenarios out there. Let's not kill off innovations just 'cause you choose not to go with it. Nor should we let old fashioned jealousy get the better of us.

Simple doesn't mean simplistic.
It is quite easy to pile up convoluted rules: think three pages for Panjis vs. less than one for Wire; and note how rare are scenarios with Panjis, even though it was a quite common fortification.
It requires more effort to develop synthetic rules which follow a design-for-effect philosophy that allows some abstractions for the benefit of playability.
Nicolas Boileau, a 17th century renowned French orator, wrote :
What is well understood is clearly stated,
And the words to say it come easily.

I think that all ASL players accept the complexity of the system.
Where they may differ is about what some consider the excess of detail in some rules (or some SSR, for that matter), which distracts too much from developing good tactics.

Another factor would be the number of games affected by a given rule: the more there exist scenarios using it, the more people will make the effort to learn them.

I would presume that designers are looking for a sweet spot that will please most of the players: not too bland, not too tarabiscoe.
The idea is not to please an elite for whom nothing is ever too complex – nor serve "just potatoes" that would only please players who won't make any effort to learn new rules.

 

[Tooz]

Half of what I have been playing is Korea. It's a theater that's never forgotten nor remote.

As with all innovations in the world, we have to give it time (and a chance) to pick up. If "not a lot of people play" is a reason to NOT innovate, most industries (and countries) will be dead a long time ago. Besides, while we are throwing unsubstantiated generalizations around, all my opponents are open to playing (and they do play) Korean War, so I see a love for the theater.

What Forgotten Wars did and what Contested Lands will do is to extend the ASL infrastructure out to more grounds where more scenarios and modules may grow. They might not get things right the first time around but they definitely (will) provide frameworks for more and better works to come, on those theaters. I can see more ASL fans drawn in, from all over the world, to play and to innovate, now that there's more available for more people.

Quite honestly, the last thing I want is for designers to churn out the same cookie cutter "simplistic" (if anything in ASL can be called "simplistic") stuff over and over and over again. Don't we have enough of those already?

Heck, there's still a big group of folks out there who choose not to play PTO or DTO because of the perceived complexity of rules. It's their hobby, so it's their call. I don't see any of us mouthing off against new developments in PTO or DTO, do we? It's a big tent, ain't it?

But please, allow those of us who love complexity our share of the hobby. We have a field of "simple" scenarios out there. Let's not kill off innovations just 'cause you choose not to go with it. Nor should we let old fashioned jealousy get the better of us.

If anything, come help with product development, come help playtest! Let's build better and more interesting products for the hobby. Put your "discerning" taste to productive use.

"Quite honestly, the last thing I want is for designers to churn out the same cookie cutter "simplistic" (if anything in ASL can be called "simplistic") stuff over and over and over again. Don't we have enough of those already?" In order to avoid designing a different version of a similar type action you do have to throw in a few wrinkles that have you reaching for the ASLRB at times. You'll see this in many of my future designs. For me it's either blaze a new trail or walk a beaten path. I prefer the former. Some new ideas just do not pan out and I have to know when to give up on something that does not work and conversely, pursue those ideas that have a good chance of success.
More boards with different quirks help as well.

 

[Tuomo]

I am curious to see how/if they represent a high-density Middle Eastern urban area. They look quite different than what we've seen on geoboards before. I tried to do one such village in the new LFT15 pack - see this thread for an (eventual) reveal.

 

[Gordon]

I am curious to see how/if they represent a high-density Middle Eastern urban area. They look quite different than what we've seen on geoboards before. I tried to do one such village in the new LFT15 pack - see this thread for an (eventual) reveal.

You are SUCH a tease ...

 

[Old Noob]

Speaking for myself, I will probably buy CONTESTED LANDS when it becomes available for pre-order.
And I will probably buy the Spanish Civil War module when it becomes available for pre-order.
An ASL player is similar to a shark, he must keep buying new modules or he drowns in langour.

 

[Wayne]

If nothing else, you'll want the maps

 

[Steve H]

If nothing else, you'll want the maps

I was wondering what kind of maps the designers have planned? If it is considered a core module, I will assume some kind of arid geomorphic ones. But the area just screams for some historical ones.

 

[johnl]

I am curious to see how/if they represent a high-density Middle Eastern urban area. They look quite different than what we've seen on geoboards before. I tried to do one such village in the new LFT15 pack - see this thread for an (eventual) reveal.

@Tuomo I did some playtesting on I'm sure an early version of that one. The density and hilliness (word?) of the village provided some special challenges. Definitely NOT a European village. Kudos.

 

[Larry]

Given the span of time covered by the AIW and the limited focus of this module, I imagine that these types of maps will get some serious mileage.