Concealment terrain question

clubby

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#1
For a side setting up onboard with the other side entering entirely from offboard, is Wall Advantage considered Concealment Terrain if the hex is otherwise Open Ground? And if so is it Concealment Terrain for Concealment Loss if it does not have Wall Advantage versus an enemy unit that sees it? Thanks
 

Jazz

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#2
Concealment terrain is defined/specified on the Chap B divider. OG behind a wall is not concealment terrain.

That being said, some of your other statements make me wonder.....you do realize that a concealed unit in OG is still concealed even in LOS? At least until it performs a concealment loss activity. They could AM behind the wall and not lose concealment either as the wall is enough to negate FFMO which is the criteria for concealment loss due to AM/Advance.

Concealment terrain is not required to maintain concealment.
 

clubby

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#3
Sorry, 5/8" AFV starting concealed in non concealment terrain, but HD to certain facings but not to others.
 

clubby

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#4
I seem to recall that a 5/8" counter, even in Open Ground, could start concealed if they could claim WA.
 

Jazz

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#5
Sorry, 5/8" AFV starting concealed in non concealment terrain, but HD to certain facings but not to others.
Ah, yes, they lose concealment. Concealment terrain is defined on the Chapt B chart and OG is not concealment terrain even behind a wall.
 

clubby

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#7
We played a scenario recently where an 88LL gun set up HIP and emplaced in otherwise OG using WA. I believe jrv was the one that told my opponent he was good with that set up.
 

Brian W

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#8
Setting up out of LOS of the enenmy, yes, but an emplaced gun would be placed onboard, concealed, when a GO enemy ground unit gained LOS withing 16 hexes if it set up in Open Ground.
 

Jazz

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#9
We played a scenario recently where an 88LL gun set up HIP and emplaced in otherwise OG using WA. I believe jrv was the one that told my opponent he was good with that set up.
A gun can set up HIP in OG. Not so for a vehicle, and the gun would come on board under a concealment counter when LOS existed.....

A12.34 HIDDEN GUNS: An Emplaced (C11.2) non-vehicular Gun and its manning crew/HS [EXC: if possessing a non-inherent SW] may always use HIP if it sets up (i.e., starts the scenario) in Concealment Terrain, even if in the LOS of an enemy unit. An Emplaced Gun may also always use HIP if not in Concealment Terrain, provided it sets up out of the LOS of all enemy ground units—but must be placed onboard under a “?” as soon as a Good Order enemy ground unit has a LOS to it regardless of range, e.g., at the start of the first RPh.....
Note that the wall would make no difference.
 

jrv

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#10
I don't recall anything about a Gun behind a wall, but perhaps. You always set up a Gun HIP if emplaced, concealment terrain or not, enemy entering from offboard or not. If in non-concealment terrain a gun will lose HIP trivially.

You can't use OB-granted "?" or HIP (besides fortification/gun HIP) in non-concealment terrain even if the enemy enter from off-board. Anything on board set up in non-concealment terrain is not a dummy. Dummies can *move* into non-concealment terrain, but can't start there.

A vehicle in non-concealment terrain will lose concealment on LOS.

JR
 
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volgaG68

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#11
You can't use OB-granted "?" or HIP (besides fortification/gun HIP) in non-concealment terrain even if the enemy enter from off-board.
EXC: Night. Just throwing that in so when the OP decides to 'turn out the lights' he will be prepared for it.
 

Brian W

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#12
You always set up a Gun HIP if emplaced, concealment terrain or not, enemy entering from offboard or not.
No, an emplaced gun can only set up HIP when in LOS of enemy units if set up in concealment terrain. If not set up in concealment terrain, it may only set up HIP if out of LOS of enemy ground units.

"An Emplaced Gun may also always use HIP if not in Concealment Terrain, provided it sets up out of the LOS of all enemy ground units...."
 

Eagle4ty

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#13
No, an emplaced gun can only set up HIP when in LOS of enemy units if set up in concealment terrain. If not set up in concealment terrain, it may only set up HIP if out of LOS of enemy ground units.

"An Emplaced Gun may also always use HIP if not in Concealment Terrain, provided it sets up out of the LOS of all enemy ground units...."
I think you were both getting at the same point, yours was stated more succinctly.:thumbsup:
 

WuWei

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#14
No, an emplaced gun can only set up HIP when in LOS of enemy units if set up in concealment terrain. If not set up in concealment terrain, it may only set up HIP if out of LOS of enemy ground units.

"An Emplaced Gun may also always use HIP if not in Concealment Terrain, provided it sets up out of the LOS of all enemy ground units...."
The sentence continues:
"... - but must be placed onboard under a "?" as soon as a Good Order enemy ground unit has a LOS to it regardless of range, e.g., at the start of the first RPh."

I think this means that you CAN set up a gun HIP in non concealment terrain, and only have to place it on board under "?" at the start of the first RPh, but I'm not sure. But what else could that sentence mean?
 

WuWei

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#15
Oh, and setting up behind bocage can make open ground into concealment terrain, B9.55.
 

Eagle4ty

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#16
My guess (SWAG only) is that it was intended for scenarios where the Defender sets up on board first and places a Gun HIP in non-concealment terrain (not yet in LOS of an enemy unit) and then the Attacker sets up on board possibly gaining LOS to that Gun. As most early scenarios were of the type where both sides set up on board, it is very possible the total ramifications had not been thought out. I would think that if a HIP Gun was placed in non-concealment terrain and a LOS to it had only been gained to it later in a scenario, that the Gun could remain HIP simply because it had not been revealed in the first RPh would be deemed to be against the intent of the rule. JMHO
 

Brian W

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#17
But what else could that sentence mean?
That if you are allowed to set up HIP, by being out of lOS of all GO enemy ground units, you lose it once one comes into LOS. How could it lose HIP it could not get if it set up within LOS of a GO enemy ground unit?
 

WuWei

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#18
That if you are allowed to set up HIP, by being out of lOS of all GO enemy ground units, you lose it once one comes into LOS. How could it lose HIP it could not get if it set up within LOS of a GO enemy ground unit?
How can something be in LOS at the start of the first RPh, but not in LOS during setup?
 

klasmalmstrom

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#19
How can something be in LOS at the start of the first RPh, but not in LOS during setup?
If I set up first I can place a hidden Gun in e.g., Open Ground. When you set up second, you place a unit that has a LOS to that Open Ground hex.

So when I set up the Gun it was not in LOS of any of your units.