Can Armored Cupola be Set Up in a Trench?

commissar1969

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B27.51 states: "Any counter may start a scenario beneath a trench counter."

B27.52 states: "Any vehicle beneath a trench counter is considered HD, but may not change its VCA or expend a Start MP."

So can an Armored Cupola set up in a Trench?

If it does, would it still see over Walls / Hedges as per D9.52?

Thanks!!!

Commissar
 

Vinnie

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Short answer is no it cannot set up within a trench as a pillbox cannot set up that way.

It may set up in the same location as a trench but would not be under the trench counter.

Why would you want it to be there? OBA protection maybe?
 

commissar1969

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Short answer is no it cannot set up within a trench as a pillbox cannot set up that way.

It may set up in the same location as a trench but would not be under the trench counter.

Why would you want it to be there? OBA protection maybe?
Hi Vinnie,

Thanks for your response.

First, could I ask you to substantiate your finding? I ask because it says that any counter can set up under a trench. I don't see why a cupola couldn't, since it's also the equivalent of an immob vehicle in all respects, and an immob vehicle can be put in a trench.

In response to your question: I want to be in a trench so I'll be Hull Down, of course. :)
 

Fort

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Hi Vinnie,

Thanks for your response.

First, could I ask you to substantiate your finding? I ask because it says that any counter can set up under a trench. I don't see why a cupola couldn't, since it's also the equivalent of an immob vehicle in all respects, and an immob vehicle can be put in a trench.

In response to your question: I want to be in a trench so I'll be Hull Down, of course. :)
First off...Armored Cupola's are NEVER considered HD, in fact, Hit Location is NA vs them. (Unless it is an actual Dug-in Tank, which would ALWAYS be HD, no matter where set up)

D9.53 SIZE: The Target Size (1.7) of an Armored Cupola is always small (+1). It is not considered HD and Hit Location (C3.9) is NA.
 

Vinnie

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See D9.52 set up as if it were a pillbox. You cannot place a PB in a trench so you cannot place an AC there. They can never be concealed either as as they have no hit location they never get hull down advantage.

There are differences between a dug in AFV and an armoured cupola You need to be sure which is which.
 

Ralph Malf

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D9.52 PLACEMENT: An Armored Cupola can be placed only in brush, grain, woods, orchard, Shellhole, debris (O1.), or Open Ground hexes as if it were a pillbox (B30.1)

B30.1 A pillbox is a Fortification counter that can be set up only prior to the start of play, and only in Open Ground (including any road/shellholes but not bridges), brush, orchard, grain or woods.


My opinion would be a cupola is not IN the Trench if set up under it, since a Pillbox is not IN the Trench if set up under it.
The Cupola does not get the benefit of forming a Bunker with a Trench like a Pillbox because the reference is only to B30.1, not any of the other Pillbox rules.

B27.51 Trench counters....... Any counter may start a scenario beneath a trench counter, but 5/8" counters may not be removed from that trench counter during play [EXC: dm mortars].

This is confusing, but the Cupola rule is the higher numbered rule, and refers only to the pillbox setup rule B30.1. And since we know Pillboxes don't get the Trench TEM I'd say the Cupola doesn't get a benefit either.

Just my opinion.
Rick
 
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commissar1969

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First off...Armored Cupola's are NEVER considered HD, in fact, Hit Location is NA vs them. (Unless it is an actual Dug-in Tank, which would ALWAYS be HD, no matter where set up)

D9.53 SIZE: The Target Size (1.7) of an Armored Cupola is always small (+1). It is not considered HD and Hit Location (C3.9) is NA.
Hi Fort,

Thanks for your response.

Yes, Cupola by themselves are not HD, just like Tanks by themselves are not HD. But if you were to put either in a Trench, they would be, at least to my mind. Note that the rule does not say "can never be HD." It just says "is not considered HD" in order to distinguish it from a Dug-In Tank.
 

commissar1969

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Thanks to all of you guys, btw.

I'll go with the consensus here, but I don't see the logic of it, since you can put any Vehicle in a Trench. But [shrug] LOL

Thanks.
 

Vinnie

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Armoured cupolas do not have a hull. they are turrets only so benefit from small target size (even if a tger turret) but have no hit location.
 

Fort

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Hi Fort,

Thanks for your response.

Yes, Cupola by themselves are not HD, just like Tanks by themselves are not HD. But if you were to put either in a Trench, they would be, at least to my mind. Note that the rule does not say "can never be HD." It just says "is not considered HD" in order to distinguish it from a Dug-In Tank.
Hi Klas,

Thanks for your response.

Can I ask you, though, what you mean by "it doesn't matter for an Armored Cupola"?
He means exactly this:

You are completely misreading several sections of the rules. This is as clear as can be:

Armored Cupola's DO NOT use the C3.9 Hit Location...so how exactly are you hitting them in the Hull or Turret...no matter where they set up.


D9.53 SIZE: The Target Size (1.7) of an Armored Cupola is always small (+1). It is not considered HD and Hit Location (C3.9) is NA.

C3.9 LOCATION OF VEHICULAR HITS: It is often necessary to know the location of a hit vs a vehicular target in order to determine the correct AF (or in the case of a HD target, whether a hit has been scored at all). An ordnance hit vs a vehicle strikes its turret/upper-superstructure Aspect (as opposed to its hull Aspect) if the colored dr of the Original TH DR is < the white dr [EXC: A CH vs a HD target is always considered to occur vs the turret/upper-superstructure, and can occur on an Original 2 TH DR; 3.7]. Otherwise, the hit strikes the hull. A turreted vehicle hit on the turret bases its Target Facing (D3.2) for the subsequent resolution of that hit on its TCA, not its VCA.
 

commissar1969

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He means exactly this:

You are completely misreading several sections of the rules. This is as clear as can be:

Armored Cupola's DO NOT use the C3.9 Hit Location...so how exactly are you hitting them in the Hull or Turret...no matter where they set up.


D9.53 SIZE: The Target Size (1.7) of an Armored Cupola is always small (+1). It is not considered HD and Hit Location (C3.9) is NA.

C3.9 LOCATION OF VEHICULAR HITS: It is often necessary to know the location of a hit vs a vehicular target in order to determine the correct AF (or in the case of a HD target, whether a hit has been scored at all). An ordnance hit vs a vehicle strikes its turret/upper-superstructure Aspect (as opposed to its hull Aspect) if the colored dr of the Original TH DR is < the white dr [EXC: A CH vs a HD target is always considered to occur vs the turret/upper-superstructure, and can occur on an Original 2 TH DR; 3.7]. Otherwise, the hit strikes the hull. A turreted vehicle hit on the turret bases its Target Facing (D3.2) for the subsequent resolution of that hit on its TCA, not its VCA.
First off, you don't have to be a d*ck about it, Gary. I know you're a genius and everything, but for most of us, ASL is a pretty complex game at times. As hard as it is to believe, there are sections of the rules that aren't crystal clear to some of us. That's what this section of the forums is for. I could have done without the condenscending tone - quoting the relevant rule and explaining the intent / logic would have been quite sufficient.
 

commissar1969

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Armoured cupolas do not have a hull. they are turrets only so benefit from small target size (even if a tger turret) but have no hit location.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me, Vinnie! :)
 

Fort

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First off, you don't have to be a d*ck about it, Gary. I know you're a genius and everything, but for most of us, ASL is a pretty complex game at times. As hard as it is to believe, there are sections of the rules that aren't crystal clear to some of us. That's what this section of the forums is for. I could have done without the condenscending tone - quoting the relevant rule and explaining the intent / logic would have been quite sufficient.
Apparently it wasn't..as this is exactly what I posted in my first post.
As far as to the rest of your post...well Chuck, piss off.
 
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