C13.311

[footsteps]

Don't recall the name of the fellow who sent this idea to T2HS:

 

[Eagle4ty]

I guess I just don't understand the layout. The boxed 1-2-3 seem superfluous and serve no purpose as the Range indications (the bracketed numbers) should do that, but all show a range of [0-3]. An indicator for the proper time frame for usage would have been more appropriate (perhaps upper left?). The number of PF depicted on the counter doesn't really seem to serve a purpose either as the total number of PF available (usable) is entirely random based upon making a dr. The info on the back could be shortened to indicate the TH# for the ranges available to that particular time frame (per counter as it were), as to have all the TH#s noted for all the ranges, even though the counter may represent a certain time frame seems redundant. In short, looking at the counters without a detailed description of their intent and informational usage, it's hard to quickly figure out what their intended purpose and use is. JMHO of course.

 

[mryder]

The intent and usage is quite obvious if one reads C13.311

 

[Brian W]

The intent and usage is quite obvious if one reads C13.311

I think I would have laid out the reverse side differently, but that is just aesthetics. However, I can count on one hand the number of scenarios I've played in 25 years of ASL that use C13.311.

How about something to eliminate the bookkeeping altogether? Say a generic PF counter on one side, with the number available on the flip side (0 to 3)--ASL players don't need range and TH#s. That way, every german SMC/MMC has a counter with the real number on the reverse. Means more counters, but also means NO written records to refer to.

[Warning, rule change suggestion]
And, as a rule change, C13.311 could be changed so that all SMC/MMC with any PF have their IPC reduced by one. Carrying around the nearly unlimited supply of PF in ASL with no affect on the amount of strudel they could carry is a little ridiculous.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

[Warning, rule change suggestion]
And, as a rule change, C13.311 could be changed so that all SMC/MMC with any PF have their IPC reduced by one. Carrying around the nearly unlimited supply of PF in ASL with no affect on the amount of strudel they could carry is a little ridiculous.

PF were fairly light at 6.3->6.8 kg for the PF 60/100, while a MG-42 without any ammo was 11.6 kg. So a 1/2 PP per PF for SMC. For a squad of, say, 10 men, one each would not be much of a burden. I did a quick calculation and the 250 rounds (alone) for a MG-34/42 would come in at ~6.8 kg, excluding links and box. For MMC I would be inclined to 1/3 to 1/4 PP per PF. The main limitation is less weight but more that they were long sticky-out things. The only fly in the ointment is that Sq and HS both have 3 IPC.

OK, a compromise, how about 2 x Usage Number, so SMC: 2, HS, Crew: 4, Sq: 6, all maximum allowed at a cost of 1 PP, <= half those numbers, IE <= Usage Number (SMC:1, HS, Crew:2, Sq:3) for free = 0 pp?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I guess I just don't understand the layout. The boxed 1-2-3 seem superfluous and serve no purpose as the Range indications (the bracketed numbers) should do that, but all show a range of [0-3]. An indicator for the proper time frame for usage would have been more appropriate (perhaps upper left?). The number of PF depicted on the counter doesn't really seem to serve a purpose either as the total number of PF available (usable) is entirely random based upon making a dr. The info on the back could be shortened to indicate the TH# for the ranges available to that particular time frame (per counter as it were), as to have all the TH#s noted for all the ranges, even though the counter may represent a certain time frame seems redundant. In short, looking at the counters without a detailed description of their intent and informational usage, it's hard to quickly figure out what their intended purpose and use is. JMHO of course.

I had the same reaction when I saw these on FB.

 

[Brian W]

It will never happen, but how about a reduction of 1 IPC that only applies to non-CX smc/mmc? So, you get a less impactful loss of an IPC point.

As for the MG ammo, that is actually why I was thinking about it. Those 4pp HMGs ate ammo and more ammo and more ammo.

 

[footsteps]

I think I would have laid out the reverse side differently, but that is just aesthetics. However, I can count on one hand the number of scenarios I've played in 25 years of ASL that use C13.311.

How about something to eliminate the bookkeeping altogether? Say a generic PF counter on one side, with the number available on the flip side (0 to 3)--ASL players don't need range and TH#s. That way, every german SMC/MMC has a counter with the real number on the reverse. Means more counters, but also means NO written records to refer to.

[Warning, rule change suggestion]
And, as a rule change, C13.311 could be changed so that all SMC/MMC with any PF have their IPC reduced by one. Carrying around the nearly unlimited supply of PF in ASL with no affect on the amount of strudel they could carry is a little ridiculous.

 

[Yuri0352]

Leave the Panzerfaust rules as they are.
The elimination of the Panzerfaust counters from SL is IMO one of the best improvements which came with ASL. I have no desire whatsoever to see any type, style or quantity of PF counters on my game board ever again.

Is it really that much of a hassle or challenge to keep a side record of PF usage on a note pad?
If so, fugeddabout Boresighting, Pre-registered OBA, HIP and Dare-death squads as well.

 

[GeorgeBates]

Leave the Panzerfaust rules as they are.
The elimination of the Panzerfaust counters from SL is IMO one of the best improvements which came with ASL. I have no desire whatsoever to see any type, style or quantity of PF counters on my game board ever again.

I second this emotion. Germans in Squad Leader scenarios were obscenely stacked. Not going back to that.

 

[mryder]

I use the optional rule when playing the Germans as friendly in SASL. Your second rendition of the PF counters is better IMO. For non-SASL maybe a counter with a "0" on the back for when the PFs are depleted so your opponent doesn't know you're out?

 

[von Marwitz]

I second this emotion. Germans in Squad Leader scenarios were obscenely stacked. Not going back to that.

But there are a few scenarios among the several thousand out there, that SSR in C13.311 (i.e. the optional usage).

Footsteps is doin' some counter-porn, so there's no real questions about being prepared for those instances, right?

von Marwitz

 

[GeorgeBates]

Footsteps is doin' some counter-porn

Hence the choice of term "obscenely stacked." Sorta like this.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

While I thought that Brian W's PF PP modification too harsh and offered an alternative, I'm really inclined to leave the PF rules stand as is.

So in order of my preference:

1. As Yuri0352 said, leave PF rules unchanged, for many reasons (clutter, light weight of PF, Fog of War, etc)
   
2. My suggestion
3. Brian W's suggestion.

Of course that'll not stop a SSR to reflect a particularly unusual or special situation. As an example, in the last few months of the war specialist PzJg battalions and brigades were formed mainly with bicycle and light truck mounted troops armed to the teeth with just PF and PSK and few if any guns. So some accounting may be necessary in such a scenario.

 

[Brian W]

As an example, in the last few months of the war specialist PzJg battalions and brigades were formed mainly with bicycle and light truck mounted troops armed to the teeth with just PF and PSK and few if any guns. So some accounting may be necessary in such a scenario.

In a scenario I designed many years ago, I used 127s to represent Tank Hunters, with PF and ATMM available on a dr1-4 (IIRC with no modification for unit size/date) and immune to PAATC; they were not allowed to man/use any other Guns/SW. They were pretty deadly against tanks, but pretty defenseless against infantry. No bookkeeping needed.

 

[Brian W]

For non-SASL maybe a counter with a "0" on the back for when the PFs are depleted so your opponent doesn't know you're out?

Yes, that was my intention for my suggestion. Mmmm, I'm thinking I can make some counters now. . .

 

[Brian W]

Is it really that much of a hassle or challenge to keep a side record of PF usage on a note pad?
If so, fugeddabout Boresighting, Pre-registered OBA, HIP and Dare-death squads as well.

Keeping PF possession on a side record is more bookkeeping than all the other listed ones combined, so yes it is too much of a hassle for me. Everyone has their own levels of hassle--for example, I love overlays but most players don't, and the rule of thumb is no more than two overlays or else your scenario won't get played much.

 

[footsteps]

To be clear, I have no problem with the ASL rules for PF. But C13.311 *does* exist as an *optional* rule, and my examples are a response to an idea floated on T2HS podcast.

None of Broken Ground's counters are necessary for the ASL system. Everything is optional, for those interested in optional things.

 

[Brian W]

And my apologies for side tracking the thread. I tried to clearly mark what was a "rule change" from what were counters that are completely within the spirit of the current rules, just mental aids in lieu of written records.

 

[Eagle4ty]

The intent and usage is quite obvious if one reads C13.311

Dooh!:facepalm: Though I still do not see the necessity of the numbers on the counters. However, I guess one could do the same application to personnel counters, letting the player know how many soldiers are depicted thereon thus denoting for certain their US#, but really don't believe that is necessary.