bypass rubble and rowhouses

[Robin Reeve]

You may think that there is no need for a question.
But people who disagree with your p.o.v. can be right.
Nobody has appointed you to be the police of the forum to give orders to other people.
And Perry doesn't need your protection.

 

[ecz]

I am thinking the MF cost might actually just be 2 MF (into the building hex) and 3 MF (into the rubble). I.e.. normal movement - the black bar has no effect on movement anymore, since one hex is not a rowhouse hex anymore. Still NRBH though.

this is how we played it and makes sense, since the notion of rowhouse is made of two parts, the blackbar and the multi hex building. If the multi -hex building ceases to exists because rubbled, the same happens to the rowhouse. Then while the blackbar may still be there, now it's possible a direct movement from one hex to another at 2 or 3 MF.
Still no idea about jrv question, but it's another story.
Also I have a question about VCs buildings and rubbles, but I'll post another different thread
Thanks

 

[Vinnie]

Looking through the Perry Sea collection and about 80% are "unnecessary" to me but tgat doesn't mean they are not needed by someone.
I can totally accept Klas' explanation as it makes perfect sense in regards to the RB. (To my mind the whole ASLRB fails to deal well with European cities but it plays well and this is a game!) However, others may disagree and a Perry Sez gives more comfort yo them.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I can also accept Klas' (NRBH btw) answer.
But I do find that an answer from Perry can serve a minima as confirmation - and perhaps be a surprise, as it sometimes is.
I often tell my students that no question is silly, if it doesn't vehicle a self contained answer.
Answers, however, can be silly.

 

[Tuomo]

What disturbs me most is that Klas was allowed to be NRBH at all. Ever.

 

[von Marwitz]

What disturbs me most is that Klas was allowed to be NRBH at all. Ever.

Agreed. We shall have it tatooed all over him. That should fix the issue.

von Marwitz

 

[Russ Isaia]

Check out the RB's label for black bars in factories: "Factory Interior Walls." Seems a good enough reason to call the Rowhouse black bars "Rowhouse interior walls" particularly when the two are stated to be "similar." O5.3.

Factory Interior Walls may "only" be crossed "via bypass (as per B23.71)" along an exterior vertex or via a Breach. O5.32. O5.34 also says that rubble has no effect on Factory Interior Walls unless there is rubble on both sides, as with Rowhouse black bars. So in the context of Factory Interior Walls Klas' answer cannot be right even though we have the right to expect the answers to be similar.

I can certainly live with any answer from Klas: I just would like the luxury of being able to defend it against those who won't accept "Klas Sez" (heretics, I understand, but they do exist). So, it seems to me a Q&A is warranted. Perry is a big boy: if he thinks it silly he can ignore it.

Here is what I would ask:

A23.71

Q. One hex of a multi-hex Rowhouse building is rubbled (at all levels). An Infantry unit then occupies the rubbled hex. May the unit (assuming sufficient remaining MF) then cross the black bar of that hex to enter an adjoining Rowhouse building hex, not rubbled to any extent, at the usual cost of 2 MF? May it "bypass" the black bar to enter an adjoining building hex at cost of 3 MF? And if instead the unit were to enter first the still extent, adjoining Rowhouse building hex, could it bypass the black bar to reach the rubbled hex and if so, at what MF cost?

Proposed A. No, the black bar still exists and therefore may not be crossed directly at the usual MF costs. No, because Rowhouse "bypass" is only available between to adjoining Rowhouse building hexes.

Here is a Gamesquad thread on the topic. http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/bypass-rubble-and-rowhouses.146933.

Your question ecz, you want to ask? Happy to have you claim this text as your own if you like. But give me a few more minutes: my searchable "Perry Sez" is a tad out of date so I should check the latest first.

 

[Russ Isaia]

No Perry Sez, but I did find that Klas asked this very question in this forum in 2003 and suggested rowhouse bypass, not direct crossing of the bar, was the option to consider in his question! http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/rowhouse-rubble-question.9175/

Proof of the fallibility of the pope?

 

[ecz]

Check out the RB's label for black bars in factories: "Factory Interior Walls." Seems a good enough reason to call the Rowhouse black bars "Rowhouse interior walls" particularly when the two are stated to be "similar." O5.3.

Factory Interior Walls may "only" be crossed "via bypass (as per B23.71)" along an exterior vertex or via a Breach. O5.32. O5.34 also says that rubble has no effect on Factory Interior Walls unless there is rubble on both sides, as with Rowhouse black bars. So in the context of Factory Interior Walls Klas' answer cannot be right even though we have the right to expect the answers to be similar.

I can certainly live with any answer from Klas: I just would like the luxury of being able to defend it against those who won't accept "Klas Sez" (heretics, I understand, but they do exist). So, it seems to me a Q&A is warranted. Perry is a big boy: if he thinks it silly he can ignore it.

Here is what I would ask:

A23.71

Q. One hex of a multi-hex Rowhouse building is rubbled (at all levels). An Infantry unit then occupies the rubbled hex. May the unit (assuming sufficient remaining MF) then cross the black bar of that hex to enter an adjoining Rowhouse building hex, not rubbled to any extent, at the usual cost of 2 MF? May it "bypass" the black bar to enter an adjoining building hex at cost of 3 MF? And if instead the unit were to enter first the still extent, adjoining Rowhouse building hex, could it bypass the black bar to reach the rubbled hex and if so, at what MF cost?

Proposed A. No, the black bar still exists and therefore may not be crossed directly at the usual MF costs. No, because Rowhouse "bypass" is only available between to adjoining Rowhouse building hexes.

Here is a Gamesquad thread on the topic. http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/bypass-rubble-and-rowhouses.146933.

Your question ecz, you want to ask? Happy to have you claim this text as your own if you like. But give me a few more minutes: my searchable "Perry Sez" is a tad out of date so I should check the latest first.

I'm good with Klas's answer above. If I had read better the rowhouse definition (multi-hex building PLUS blackbar ) in the RB probably I would have given the same answer by myself. Lacking the multihex building lacks the Rowhouse itself although the blackbar exists, so the peculiar mechanic of the mandatory bypass ceases to exists.
But everyone can ask to Perry if so inclined. NP here.

 

[ecz]

Agreed. We shall have it tatooed all over him. That should fix the issue.

von Marwitz

I'm sure someone here would warn him about the possible copyright infringment

 

[Russ Isaia]

I'm good with Klas's answer above. If I had read better the rowhouse definition (multi-hex building PLUS blackbar ) in the RB probably I would have given the same answer by myself. Lacking the multihex building lacks the Rowhouse itself although the blackbar exists, so the peculiar mechanic of the mandatory bypass ceases to exists.
But everyone can ask to Perry if so inclined. NP here.

I will then. Klas' answer seems to be "the bar is still there, though not for movement, advance, rout purposes." That's relying on an unstated exception, and unstated exceptions are correction of errata, not clarifications. For those, I prefer something more definitive than even pronouncements from the pope.

 

[M.A.]

in the diagram below how many MF cost moving from W5 to W4?
and how many MF cost moving from W4 to W5?
and why?
Rubble is inherent terrain, so the "one" cost to to bypass the rowhouse should cost three...
or not?

same moving from the non rubbled hex to the rubbled hex: 1 or 3 to bypass the vertex? and then another 3 MF to actually enter the hex.
game ongoing...
thanks

Ok, so how do you all handle the situation of a rubbled first level of a rowhouse with ground level rubble in one of the two hexes of a still intact rowhouse as jrv pointed out?

 

[ecz]

Ok, so how do you all handle the situation of a rubbled first level of a rowhouse with ground level rubble in one of the two hexes of a still intact rowhouse as jrv pointed out?

ah ah, no idea! luckily I'm not Perry
your opinion?

this is a very good question to ask Perry, IMO

 

[Vinnie]

I suspect it will be 3mf to move from building to building rubble.

The ground level of any hex containing upper level rubble is assumed to be covered with rubble throughout the hex, although it does not harm units at ground level when it occurs and units may cross the ground level hex through a connecting (non-rubble) building hexside at non-rubble movement rates.

You can cross as the buildings are connected even though you can't move through that hexsides.
A confirmation would be good.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Ok, so how do you all handle the situation of a rubbled first level of a rowhouse with ground level rubble in one of the two hexes of a still intact rowhouse as jrv pointed out?

Going from the hex with Level 1 rubble into the hex without rubble is as normal: 1 MF to "bypass" and 2 MF to enter the building.

Going the other way, I think is 1 MF to "bypass" and 3 MF to enter the rubble+building.
The B24.2 example says it costs 3 MF to enter building hex that has rubble as Level 1 (or above).

"...Now assume that the rubble in H2 was at level one. A unit in I2 would have to pay three MF to enter H2, but a unit at ground level in G3, H3, or I3 would only have to pay two MF to enter H2."

 

[Tom Morin]

I had asked Perry about this when play testing Operation Turnscrew for Dispatches (so the hex example is from the map).

Perry Sez:

3 & 2 since "bypass"is not involved.



....Perry

MMP


>
>> *From:* Thomas Morin <tmorin2454@gmail.com <mailto:tmorin2454@gmail.com>>
>> *Date:* March 20, 2017 at 5:20:13 PM EDT
>> *To:* Perry Cocke
>> *Subject:* *Re: A to Q about rubbled Row House "bypass" question*
>>
>> Perry,
>>
>> Please see the Example below.
>>
>> Inline image 1
>>
>> The U19/V18 Black Bar hexside still exists per B23.71.
>>
>> Movement/Advance/Rout is allowed directly from V18 to U19 for a cost
>> of 3MF or 4MF (due to black bar 'bypass')?
>>
>> Movement/Advance/Rout is allowed directly from U19 to V18 for a cost
>> of 2MF or 3MF (due to black bar 'bypass')?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Tom

 

[Tom Morin]

Also, if someone could please move this thread to the Perry Sez thread.

Thanks,

Tom

 

[ecz]

Also, if someone could please move this thread to the Perry Sez thread.

Thanks,

Tom

I had asked Perry about this when play testing Operation Turnscrew for Dispatches (so the hex example is from the map).

Perry Sez:

3 & 2 since "bypass"is not involved.



....Perry

MMP


>
>> *From:* Thomas Morin <tmorin2454@gmail.com <mailto:tmorin2454@gmail.com>>
>> *Date:* March 20, 2017 at 5:20:13 PM EDT
>> *To:* Perry Cocke <perrycocke@comcast.net <mailto:perrycocke@comcast.net>>
>> *Subject:* *Re: A to Q about rubbled Row House "bypass" question*
>>
>> Perry,
>>
>> Please see the Example below.
>>
>> Inline image 1
>>
>> The U19/V18 Black Bar hexside still exists per B23.71.
>>
>> Movement/Advance/Rout is allowed directly from V18 to U19 for a cost
>> of 3MF or 4MF (due to black bar 'bypass')?
>>
>> Movement/Advance/Rout is allowed directly from U19 to V18 for a cost
>> of 2MF or 3MF (due to black bar 'bypass')?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Tom

View attachment 4363

great!
but I'm not sure if this answer covers the other question: what about only level one or two (and not the base level) is rubbled? I think the bypass is not anymore necessary in all cases, so the cost remains the same Perry said, 3 & 2

 

[Robin Reeve]

It would be better to make a single post in the Perry Sez folder, as it is meant to contain the answers of Perry rather than the debates which led to them.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

great!
but I'm not sure if this answer covers the other question: what about only level one or two (and not the base level) is rubbled? I think the bypass is not anymore necessary in all cases, so the cost remains the same Perry said, 3 & 2

I don't think it is the same situation - see my post #35 above - as with upper-level rubble the hex is still a rowhouse hex.