bypass rubble and rowhouses

ecz

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in the diagram below how many MF cost moving from W5 to W4?
and how many MF cost moving from W4 to W5?
and why?
Rubble is inherent terrain, so the "one" cost to to bypass the rowhouse should cost three...
or not?

same moving from the non rubbled hex to the rubbled hex: 1 or 3 to bypass the vertex? and then another 3 MF to actually enter the hex.
game ongoing...
thanks
 

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klasmalmstrom

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Not sure you have to "bypass" the black bar anymore, now that one hex is rubbled (even though the black bar is still there). I think the rule only speaks about "bypass" movement from rowhouse hex to rowhouse hex. NRBH, though.
 

ctewks

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W5 to W4 = 3 MF

W4 to W5 = 4 MF

B23.71 .........Rubble has no effect on this black bar unless both hexes formed by that hexside are rubbled, in which case it ceases to exist.......
 

ecz

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Not sure you have to "bypass" the black bar anymore, now that one hex is rubbled (even though the black bar is still there). I think the rule only speaks about "bypass" movement from rowhouse hex to rowhouse hex. NRBH, though.
blackbar exists because per B 23.71 Rubble has no effect on this black bar unless both hexes formed by that hexside are rubbled, in which case it ceases to exist

My question is about the MF cost since Rubble is inherent Terrain
 

Russ Isaia

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The blackbar may still exist, but I think the rationale is that rowhouse bypass is available only to travel between two rowhouse building hexes. A rubbled hex is no longer a building hex. B23.4.

A23.71 does not quite say "two rowhouse building hexes" but it is, IMHO, close enough - "Infantry in a Rowhouse may [move] directly into another Rowhouse hex of the same building" via rowhouse bypass.

So the MF are 3 (to enter the unrubbled building hex) or 4 (to enter the rubbled hex) traveling in both cases via V4 or X4, and advance between the two hexes would not even be possible.
 

Honosbinda

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Clarification is required and a Q/A should be sent or searched for. The problem being that rubble is not a rowhouse hex, yet the rules still stipulate the black bar is there and therefore might cause some kind of movement effect. Although, this could just be an LOS effect -- the rules are too vague on this point.

I'd play it like this: the black bar still exists and a notional 1MP must be spent at the vertex to get around it going in either direction, then + COT. That is, either 3MP or 4MP total (note: this is not considered normal bypass along a rubble hexside so that would not be paid for at 3MF). Advance is definitely possible as specifically indicated at the ground level per B23.71. However, going into the rubble this would be advance vs difficult terrain. LOS would NOT exist between the rubble and the ground floor of the affiliated rowhouse.
 

klasmalmstrom

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So the MF are 3 (to enter the unrubbled building hex) or 4 (to enter the rubbled hex) traveling in both cases via V4 or X4, and advance between the two hexes would not even be possible.
I am thinking the MF cost might actually just be 2 MF (into the building hex) and 3 MF (into the rubble). I.e.. normal movement - the black bar has no effect on movement anymore, since one hex is not a rowhouse hex anymore. Still NRBH though. :)
 

Honosbinda

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The problem is we are left with the goofy situation of having a black bar on the outside of a building edge, a situation that does not exist for any of the other regular structures in the game, although it easily could. Every building in ASL supposedly has plenty of windows and other apertures on every single outer wall that we can fire with full effect with anything inside it -- even though we all know that not every building has openings on every wall. Yet, the only time we run into this in the game, is in the case of a rubbled rowhouse structure, how droll. So we are supposed to think that this black bar still blocks LOS, but does not require some special movement navigation to get around it from the rubble hex. I suppose that's possible, why not? But the rule could be written more tightly, IMO. Based on a review of the rule, I'd have to agree that the so-called bypass is no longer necessary, but there is still the funky non-LOS situation.
 

Eagle4ty

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B23.711 BREACH, also intimates that Rubble has no additional effect upon the "blocking" effects of a Black Bar for either LOS or movement. Note at the end of the rule it states, "A Breach is also created whenever an AFV drives through a black bar without causing rubble as per 23.41.", which would lead one to assume the Black Bar effects would remain unchanged should rubble occur.
 

jrv

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One can modify the question so that only the upper level of a two-level rowhouse is rubbled. That fills the ground level outside the building with falling rubble but leaves it as a building hex as well, leaving the question of whether a wall without a building on one side behaves as a wall for another day.

JR
 

von Marwitz

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W5 to W4 = 3 MF

W4 to W5 = 4 MF

B23.71 .........Rubble has no effect on this black bar unless both hexes formed by that hexside are rubbled, in which case it ceases to exist.......
This would also be my take.

von Marwitz
 

Eagle4ty

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One can modify the question so that only the upper level of a two-level rowhouse is rubbled. That fills the ground level outside the building with falling rubble but leaves it as a building hex as well, leaving the question of whether a wall without a building on one side behaves as a wall for another day.

JR
That should help obfuscate the vague.:rolleyes:
 

davegin

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I don't see what all the fuss is about. Klas is correct; the black bar would no longer have a movement effect going from the 1/2 rowhouse hex to the rubble and vice versa. So 3 MF into the rubble or 2 MF into the building. The black bar is symbolic of an exterior wall between the building hexes, once the one building hex ceases to exist, the black bar simply becomes the fourth exterior wall of the still remaining building. Quit asking Perry silly questions. I'm sure his time can be better spent.
 

Russ Isaia

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Clarification is required and a Q/A should be sent or searched for. The problem being that rubble is not a rowhouse hex, yet the rules still stipulate the black bar is there and therefore might cause some kind of movement effect. Although, this could just be an LOS effect -- the rules are too vague on this point.

I'd play it like this: the black bar still exists and a notional 1MP must be spent at the vertex to get around it going in either direction, then + COT. That is, either 3MP or 4MP total (note: this is not considered normal bypass along a rubble hexside so that would not be paid for at 3MF). Advance is definitely possible as specifically indicated at the ground level per B23.71. However, going into the rubble this would be advance vs difficult terrain. LOS would NOT exist between the rubble and the ground floor of the affiliated rowhouse.
One issue with this interpretation is that the RB says the movement cost, without exception, is 3 MF. Literally, “3” (ok, there is a parenthetical to explain how the “3” is derived, but it is not a rule). So, same either direction, and even if the rowhouse hexes are plunked down in the woods. Add that case to the q&a. No rubble required.
 

Russ Isaia

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I don't see what all the fuss is about. Klas is correct; the black bar would no longer have a movement effect going from the 1/2 rowhouse hex to the rubble and vice versa. So 3 MF into the rubble or 2 MF into the building. The black bar is symbolic of an exterior wall between the building hexes, once the one building hex ceases to exist, the black bar simply becomes the fourth exterior wall of the still remaining building. Quit asking Perry silly questions. I'm sure his time can be better spent.
As I live in a rowhouse, I can assure you what is modeled here is a shared interior wall. If my neighbor’s building burns and collapses, I will still have a 14” brick wall to keep you out, unless you go out into the street and enter my buildIng from the street. No bypass, as the rubble from the building will force you well into the street.
 

davegin

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As a contractor for 45 years and one who has built rowhouses, I can assure you that what you refer to as a "shared interior wall" is by fire code definition an exterior wall. Your shared wall has to meet the regulations of an exterior wall for thickness and fire rating. Thus if the shared building collapses it is truly just an exterior wall as it hasn't changed and there is nothing to share. In game terms, this simply represents the non-ability to go directly from one shared building hex to the next without first exiting the building. When rubble is in the adjoining hex you can directly exit the building into the rubble, no need for the 1 MP stipulation as the rubble is connected to both the building and open ground parts of the hexside. Again, Klas is correct.
 

Robin Reeve

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I don't see what all the fuss is about. Klas is correct; the black bar would no longer have a movement effect going from the 1/2 rowhouse hex to the rubble and vice versa. So 3 MF into the rubble or 2 MF into the building. The black bar is symbolic of an exterior wall between the building hexes, once the one building hex ceases to exist, the black bar simply becomes the fourth exterior wall of the still remaining building. Quit asking Perry silly questions. I'm sure his time can be better spent.
Quit posting silly reality arguments.
We are speaking of game rules interpretation.
 

davegin

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Then read the rule. The "reality" statement was in reference to a non-professional opinion of the definition of a wall. Klas had already stated the effects for the rule movement. The only thing "silly" is people's desire to burden Perry with ridiculous questions. Is it any wonder why Perry's reactions are terse one word answers?
 
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