Broken Ground Design Thread

cathmor01

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Thanks for the reply. I didn't know if they were finalized yet or not. I will wait for the "official" go ahead.
 

olli

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Martin is doing this with alan as far as I know!
 

Vinnie

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Cool. There is a fair bit to look over and I can’t recall if I’ve covered every one yet.
I know I need to do the multiapplicable notes and the tables.
 

footsteps

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While researching Soviet vehicles, I came across the fact that the first 100 IS tanks issued carried the 85L gun. The KV-85 was a hybrid because there were more IS turrets constructed than chassis available, and the Soviets wanted as many bigger guns out there as possible. But that still means that there needs to be an IS 1 or IS-85 counter for those early versions of the IS.

Plans were in place to up-gun to the 100L, then abandoned when they chose the 122L instead.

And so...

13319 13321
 

Paul M. Weir

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The IS-1/IS-85 had basically the same turret as the existing 2 IS-2 variants so should be a [14] rather than a (14). The KV-85's turret is grossly under stated. It should really be [[[8]]] (IE 18) rather than [8], but official ASL only allows 1 "step" up or down from the hull.
 

Paul M. Weir

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Oh, I forgot to add that I believe some IS-1 were used in what was known as the Korsun Pocket operation. 13th Guards Heavy Breakthrough Tank Regiment, which sounds massive, but that would have only been 21 IS-1 (4 x 5 tank companies). I also remember a picture of a well ventilated IS-1 recovered by the Soviets. While it could well have been a trial target on a test firing range, it still had patches of winter white wash over its green. That whitewash indicated a battle casualty.
 

footsteps

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The IS-1/IS-85 had basically the same turret as the existing 2 IS-2 variants so should be a [14] rather than a (14). The KV-85's turret is grossly under stated. It should really be [[[8]]] (IE 18) rather than [8], but official ASL only allows 1 "step" up or down from the hull.
I was reasoning that the mount for the 122L was more robust than the 85L, and that the larger gun would have required counter-balancing armour on the turret to compensate.

How about 14/(11)?
 

Paul M. Weir

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On all IS variants the mantle was only 100mm thick! The bigger 122mm required a widening of the cut-out in the turret, thus replacing thick cheek armour with the thinner mantle. I have read little to indicate that the 122mm was breech heavy, indeed I think the reason that the mantle could not be thickened was that the 122mm was slightly muzzle heavy.

If you wanted to reflect the differences, for IS-2 a frontal turret hit with a DR of 3 treat as a CH, but not for the IS-1. The IS-1 actually had slightly better protection than the IS-2 at the turret front.

I would retain the exact same armour of the early IS-2 (no IS-2m, IS-2M is a postwar rebuild) RVN 27 of [14]/11. I hadn't noticed reduced turret side armour on your IS-1 before now. Again the 8 turret side armour of the KV-85 is an incorrect artefact of the limited ASL "steps".

A KV-85 should rate [[[8]]]/[[6]], an IS-1 [14]/11, early IS-2 [14]/11 and late IS-2 (26)/11.
 

footsteps

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On all IS variants the mantle was only 100mm thick! The bigger 122mm required a widening of the cut-out in the turret, thus replacing thick cheek armour with the thinner mantle. I have read little to indicate that the 122mm was breech heavy, indeed I think the reason that the mantle could not be thickened was that the 122mm was slightly muzzle heavy.

If you wanted to reflect the differences, for IS-2 a frontal turret hit with a DR of 3 treat as a CH, but not for the IS-1. The IS-1 actually had slightly better protection than the IS-2 at the turret front.

I would retain the exact same armour of the early IS-2 (no IS-2m, IS-2M is a postwar rebuild) RVN 27 of [14]/11. I hadn't noticed reduced turret side armour on your IS-1 before now. Again the 8 turret side armour of the KV-85 is an incorrect artefact of the limited ASL "steps".

A KV-85 should rate [[[8]]]/[[6]], an IS-1 [14]/11, early IS-2 [14]/11 and late IS-2 (26)/11.
Paul, you're killing me with facts! ?
 

Paul M. Weir

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Red MP might usually be appropriate for any new vehicle introduced into the battlefield. The Soviets often produced something in numbers then fixed them at depot or field level. From reading that item, the IS-1 seemed not much worse than many other mid-late war introductions. I've read far more scathing Soviet reports on new vehicles, from the web over the years.

So Red MP but no RMAVN note M would be reasonable, but I've no strong feelings either way.

The battle report of 13th Guards Heavy Breakthrough Tank Regiment indicate that almost all casualties were battle casualties and 1 slid into a ditch. So once committed, mechanical casualties were the least of their problems.
 
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Gordon

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A cool "what if" vehicle would be the izd.245/248 prototypes with the D-10 100mm gun. Better armor penetration than the 122mm gun with more rounds carried. (at least according to Zaloga in New Vanguard #7).
 

Honza

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Do the American broken ground counters have 747 Assault Engineers?
 
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