British 77mm APDS availability

[Roadtogundagai]

Found the following source on the web dealing with 17pdr and 77mm production during WW2:

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/17pounder.aspx

Interesting that the figures for APDS production show very significant 77mm APDS production in 44-45.

Total 17pdr tubes produced = 11,000 (approx).
Total 17pdr APDS rounds produced = 177,000
APDS rounds/tube = 16 (approx)

Total 77mm tubes produced = 360
Total 77mm APDS rounds produced = 49,000
APDS rounds/tube = 136 (approx)

This is a very rough calculation, but it does suggest that 77mm APDS for the Comet should be at least as plentiful as the 17pdr APDS rounds, and quite possibly significantly more so. Perhaps D745? Or even D845? This would assume that the amount of APDS manufactured is directly related to the amount issued to units. Otherwise, what did the Brits do with some 49,000 rounds of 77mm APDS?

Since the projectile was the same for the 77mm and 17pdr APDS, then the TK# differential should be similar. For 17pdr it jumps from 23 to 25. The 77mm should perhaps jump from 19 to 21/22? This could make a real difference if you get lucky and hit a Panther gun mantlet with 77mm APDS vs standard 77mm AP. A lucky kill (final TK#5) becomes a much better opportunity (final TK#7/8).

Here's a source stating that typically around 20% of the AP load out in a Comet was APDS. This matches the production figures in the first source very closely.

http://www.paoyeomanry.co.uk/PM/LY1947.htm

Any commments?
Does anyone have any other sources with more/better information?

 

[wrongway149]

Found
Since the projectile was the same for the 77mm and 17pdr APDS, then the TK# differential should be similar. For 17pdr it jumps from 23 to 25. The 77mm should perhaps jump from 19 to 21/22? This could make a real difference if you get lucky and hit a Panther gun mantlet with 77mm APDS vs standard 77mm AP. A lucky kill (final TK#5) becomes a much better opportunity (final TK#7/8).

?

Might make a difference in both of the scenarios that use the Comet
:devious:

 

[jrv]

Total 77mm tubes produced = 360
Total 77mm APDS rounds produced = 49,000
APDS rounds/tube = 136 (approx)

This is a very rough calculation, but it does suggest that 77mm APDS for the Comet should be at least as plentiful as the 17pdr APDS rounds, and quite possibly significantly more so. Perhaps D745? Or even D845? This would assume that the amount of APDS manufactured is directly related to the amount issued to units. Otherwise, what did the Brits do with some 49,000 rounds of 77mm APDS?

...

Any commments?
Does anyone have any other sources with more/better information?

According to the Chapter H notes, "about 1,200 Comets were build between April 1944 and May 1945." The article you cite mentions "743 Comets with a less powerful 17pdr variant had been completed" by May 1945. Wikipedia again says 1,200. I'm thinking the number 360 is not correct for the number of tubes.

I think I see. The number "360" is tubes produced in 1944, while the 1945 entry is blank. The number of APDS rounds is 10,000 for 1944 and 39,000 for 1945, so the missing value is the number of tubes for 1945.

Still it seems that there should be APDS for the Comet with a relatively high D#.

JR

 

[Roadtogundagai]

According to the Chapter H notes, "about 1,200 Comets were build between April 1944 and May 1945." The article you cite mentions "743 Comets with a less powerful 17pdr variant had been completed" by May 1945. Wikipedia again says 1,200. I'm thinking the number 360 is not correct for the number of tubes.

I think I see. The number "360" is tubes produced in 1944, while the 1945 entry is blank. The number of APDS rounds is 10,000 for 1944 and 39,000 for 1945, so the missing value is the number of tubes for 1945.

JR

Good catch. Thanks

That lowers the APDS rounds per tube to around 40 (49,000 / 1200) - still significantly more than the 17pdr.

I think Bob McNamara did a great job way back in the 80s with the vehicle values, but the British 77mm should have APDS, perhaps at a higher availability than the 17pdr.

 

[Glennbo]

Might make a difference in both of the scenarios that use the Comet
:devious:

I used two Comets in "Symphony of Violence". Had I known about this so-called glut of APCR I might have added another tiny SSR to an already over-heavy SSR scenario.

In the spirit of Mr. Shellings sarcasm I must agree that I will probably never use the Comet again in any other scenario.

 

[Portal]

Come on, Glennbo, pay attention to the minutiae. It was APDS that was widely available, not APCR. :laugh:

 

[Paul M. Weir]

From looking at some of the published penetration figures for 17lbr APDS I suspect the TK is a little low. I would suggest 26 or maybe 27.

 

[jrv]

Here's a source stating that typically around 20% of the AP load out in a Comet was APDS. This matches the production figures in the first source very closely.

http://www.paoyeomanry.co.uk/PM/LY1947.htm

Any commments?
Does anyone have any other sources with more/better information?

According to "Tommy Atkins at War Revisited," in Journal 7, "As for the de-rated '77mm' 17-pdr in the Comet, its AP performance was seriously compromised by the absence of APDS ammunition in wartime; small quantities were manufactured from early 1945 onwards but there is no evidence that it was ever issued" [p. 38]. According to the article, a fully-footnoted version of the same article is on MMP's web site, but in my ten-second search, I didn't find it.

JR

 

[Roadtogundagai]

According to "Tommy Atkins at War Revisited," in Journal 7, "As for the de-rated '77mm' 17-pdr in the Comet, its AP performance was seriously compromised by the absence of APDS ammunition in wartime; small quantities were manufactured from early 1945 onwards but there is no evidence that it was ever issued" [p. 38]. According to the article, a fully-footnoted version of the same article is on MMP's web site, but in my ten-second search, I didn't find it.

JR

Very interesting. The sources I have quoted appear reliable - with 77mm APDS production figures for 1944 and 1945. Makes me wonder what the Brits did with 49,000 77mm APDS rounds produced in 44-45 :laugh:

My sources could be wrong, of course.

 

[jrv]

This web site says APDS was issued as of Aug 1944, and also gives another source: http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/british_guns5.html

Interestingly, everything I've read says the vehicle wasn't built until Sept 1944 and not issued until Dec 1944.

JR

 

[jrv]

Yet more references:

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/unitedkingdom/cruiser/comet.asp

JR