Bounding Fire Same Tank, Separate MG Fire, Same Target

commissar1969

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
319
Reaction score
12
Location
Martin, TN
Country
llUnited States
Gentlemen:

Can a Bounding Fire tank, in the same MPh, fire its (non-MA) CMG at a target, await the outcome, and then fire its (non-MA) BMG at the same target / Location?

Thank you,

Commie
 

Binchois

Too many words...
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,513
Reaction score
571
Location
Michigan
First name
Lester
Country
llUnited States
No. Mandatory FG applies (D3.5) to an AFV's MGs firing at the same target.

...The FP of a vehicle's various MG/IFE armaments may all be added together for one attack (assuming the target lies within their respective CA), or fired separately at different targets [Mandatory FG (A7.55) applies].​

Also, be aware that Bounding Fire of MGs restricts an AFV's remaining armaments:

D3.31 ...If a vehicle fires any weapon other than its MA during the MPh it may not fire its other weapons/PRC during the AFPh.

D3.51 ...Once any vehicular weapon fires, its other weapons may fire in that phase only from that same hex [EXC: OVR; and MA retaining a Multiple ROF may fire again from another hex if the previous shot(s) were Bounding First Fire].
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,307
Reaction score
5,389
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
I don't think it is allowed. But NRBH, What does A7.55 say?

If Good Order units/weapons in the same Location are going to fire at the same target (i.e.,, at both the same Location and the same unit and the same "simultaneous" [8.1] MF/MP expenditure; see D3.5) during the same phase they must form a FG.​

On further consideration I think the weapons must be combined, even if fired on separate MP expenditures.

JR
 

Binchois

Too many words...
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,513
Reaction score
571
Location
Michigan
First name
Lester
Country
llUnited States
If Good Order units/weapons in the same Location are going to fire at the same target (i.e.,, at both the same Location and the same unit and the same "simultaneous" [8.1] MF/MP expenditure; see D3.5) during the same phase they must form a FG.​

On further consideration I think the weapons must be combined, even if fired on separate MP expenditures.

JR
I completely agree that this problem is left unclear in the RB and a question to Perry is warranted. I am not sure what about A7.55 makes you favor the opinion that you couldn't BFF a CMG, expend a delay MP, and then fire your BMG at the same target (so long as it doesn't leave the hex, violating D3.51). Because of the delay point, the shots are clearly not "simultaneous."

I assume that you are ignoring the parenthesized portion of A7.55 (as cited) since it appears to refer to the target's MPh. However, such rules are often reversed when using Bounding Fire, like the modifiers for "limited view" (Cases J1/J2 become C1/C2) now apply to the firer's MP expenditure, and that a MA must expend an additional MP before taking a second shot rather than waiting for the enemy to expend an extra MP/MF instead.

Or am I missing your point?
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
16,161
Reaction score
2,639
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
I am pretty sure the "simultaneous" - only refers to a target spending MF/MP in the MPh. Since a BFF is not tied to a MP expenditure.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,307
Reaction score
5,389
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
I completely agree that this problem is left unclear in the RB and a question to Perry is probably warranted. I am not sure what about A7.55 makes you favor the opinion that you couldn't BFF a CMG, expend a delay MP, and then fire your BMG at the same target (so long as it doesn't leave the hex, violating D3.51). Because of the delay point, the shots are clearly not "simultaneous."

I assume that you are ignoring the parenthesized portion of A7.55 (as cited) since it appears to refer to the target's MPh. However, such rules are often reversed when using Bounding Fire, like the modifiers for "limited view" (Cases J1/J2 become C1/C2) now apply to the firer's MP expenditure, and that a MA must expend an additional MP before taking a second shot rather than waiting for the enemy to expend an extra MP/MF instead.
D3.5 "The FP of a vehicle's various MG/IFE armaments may all be added together for one attack (assuming the target lies within their respective CA), or fired separately at different targets [Mandatory FG (A7.55) applies." This says to me that you can either fire at one target as a FG or fire at different targets. There is no option to fire separately at the same target.

JR
 

Binchois

Too many words...
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,513
Reaction score
571
Location
Michigan
First name
Lester
Country
llUnited States
I am pretty sure the "simultaneous" - only refers to a target spending MF/MP in the MPh. Since a BFF is not tied to a MP expenditure.
Likely true, I would say. And D3.5's reading is persuasive enough, JR. Particularly since it makes no mention of MP expenditure. However, when you next read D3.51...

D3.51 ...Once any vehicular weapon fires, its other weapons may fire in that phase only from that same hex [EXC: OVR; and MA retaining a Multiple ROF may fire again from another hex if the previous shot(s) were Bounding First Fire].​

...the door seems to open to the other possibility (so long as the vehicle remains in hex). In that light, the parenthesis in A7.55 starts to make the issue a little fuzzier.

I do believe you guys are on to the probable intention, but I would favor the question going to Perry.
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
16,062
Reaction score
1,887
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
If mandatory FG applies, if one weapon is outside the .CA, do you need to turn it to bear to fire it at the same time as other weapons?
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,307
Reaction score
5,389
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
If mandatory FG applies, if one weapon is outside the .CA, do you need to turn it to bear to fire it at the same time as other weapons?
Not unless you want to use the firepower in the attack.

Note that during the friendly MPh CAs do not change as part of a BFF attack. You must make any CA changes you want as part of movement expenditures.

JR
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
16,062
Reaction score
1,887
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
Not unless you want to use the firepower in the attack.

Note that during the friendly MPh CAs do not change as part of a BFF attack. You must make any CA changes you want as part of movement expenditures.

JR
So I can go up, with my turret away from the target. Stop. Fire BMG. Delay and turn the turret, fire CMG?
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,307
Reaction score
5,389
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
So I can go up, with my turret away from the target. Stop. Fire BMG. Delay and turn the turret, fire CMG?
Not if we are correct and mandatory FG applies. You can fire the CMG at a different target, and if the CA is right, on the same MP expenditure I should think.

JR
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
16,062
Reaction score
1,887
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
So if my turret is facing away, I have to wait to fire the BMG with the turret having been turned to link up or I cannot fire the CMG at that target?
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,307
Reaction score
5,389
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
So if my turret is facing away, I have to wait to fire the BMG with the turret having been turned to link up or I cannot fire the CMG at that target?
You can turn (delaying if necessary) and fire. It's not clear why you didn't turn your turret when you spent the MP to stop, which in most cases you just did. But perhaps you fired your MA in another direction. In that case you would have to delay and turn your TCA.

JR
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
16,062
Reaction score
1,887
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
Cool.
I'm not disputing, just running through the consequences. It seems a little odd to me but I've no real problem with it.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,307
Reaction score
5,389
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Note that you would have to delay for two MP to change TCA if in a woods/building (not in bypass or on a road) [D3.12].

JR
 

commissar1969

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
319
Reaction score
12
Location
Martin, TN
Country
llUnited States
Rule C5.3 says: "A vehicle with a Multiple ROF may not fire again until it has expended another MP (even if only a Delay MP)."

However, the (non-MA) MG can't get ROF.

So I honestly don't see where the confusion is.
 
Top