B28.1 and B28.41

[Commissar Piotr]

Hi Guys

Strictly by the rules, would it be possible to place a A-T Minefield in a upper level of a building and have it attack a Tank that is bypassing the building at Ground Level?

If possible seems a great way of using mines in KGP for example.

 

[JD Sullivan]

No per B28.1 "Minefields may not be placed...Interior Building Hex..."

I got my rule reference wrong. I guess they need to specify in the RB that minefields are placed at ground level of the hex, but that's a common sense thing they forgot about. B28.44 would indicate that a minefield in a building hex only effects units crossing the non-building hexsides so that tells me that the mines are outside the building. The use of 'hex' versus 'location' also tells me that the mines are not in a location within a ex, but in the hex itself. Since a tank would never enter a 1L location on a building I would say the attack and the placement of the mines would be illegal.

 

[Blackcloud6]

Did Acme's hovering AT mines come out in the 1940s? I know their Portable Hole didn't come out until the mid 1950s. :laugh:

 

[Brian W]

Hi Guys

Strictly by the rules, would it be possible to place a A-T Minefield in a upper level of a building and have it attack a Tank that is bypassing the building at Ground Level?

No, minefields only attack units in their own location, B28.1.

 

[Commissar Piotr]

Hi Brian

No, minefields only attack units in their own location, B28.1.

I see nothing in B28.1 stating when the mines attack, only that the presence of them is revealed when entering the location.
B28.41 states that they attack as someone enters the hex over a non-building hexside.

I am thinking that if you place AT mines in a upper level building they are not revealed if someone enters the hex by using bypass but they do attack that bypassing vehicle since they enter a minefield hex (encompasses all levels of the hex) over a non-building hexside.

 

[Sparafucil3]

Hi Brian



I see nothing in B28.1 stating when the mines attack, only that the presence of them is revealed when entering the location.
B28.41 states that they attack as someone enters the hex over a non-building hexside.

I am thinking that if you place AT mines in a upper level building they are not revealed if someone enters the hex by using bypass but they do attack that bypassing vehicle since they enter a minefield hex (encompasses all levels of the hex) over a non-building hexside.

I would say no becuase the upper level of the building has no part of it's Location that is not an interior building hex unlike a ground floor which does. -- jim

 

[Brian W]

I am thinking that if you place AT mines in a upper level building they are not revealed if someone enters the hex by using bypass but they do attack that bypassing vehicle since they enter a minefield hex (encompasses all levels of the hex) over a non-building hexside.

Yes, you are right. Please try it in a game with someone and let me know how it turns out.

 

[alanp]

The use of 'hex' versus 'location' also tells me that the mines are not in a location within a hex, but in the hex itself.

Commisar Piotr, doesn't this part of JD's post answer the question for you? Mines are a bit abstracted in this game and the way they're triggered--entering hex across a non-building hexside--works. Are you trying to be sneaking and keep them from being 'searched'? Are you buying them in a CG for which you've lost Control of Ground Level? Your question doesn't make 100% sense.

As an aside, I think there may be some mis-understanding about what an Interior Building Hex is. This is a building hex surround on all six sides with other building hexes. Not the interior of a building or moving inside a building.

 

[Psycho]

For anyone that hasn't ever heard of a "rules lawyer"... :crosseye:

 

[Commissar Piotr]

Hi Guys

Thanks for your answers.
This is not a question that have any relevance since it turned up quite some time ago and we did resolve it with the common sense method.
It was at a tournament though and the question got us thinking on what the rules actually say.
Our conclusion was that by the rulebook it is probably possible to place the mines in a upper level building location and have them attack units that enter over non-building hexsides at ground level.
Since that would not be in line with common sense as it states in the introduction to the rules we deemed it not valid.
Just wanted to know your thoughts on the matter.

 

[Psycho]

Hi Guys

Thanks for your answers.
This is not a question that have any relevance since it turned up quite some time ago and we did resolve it with the common sense method.
It was at a tournament though and the question got us thinking on what the rules actually say.
Our conclusion was that by the rulebook it is probably possible to place the mines in a upper level building location and have them attack units that enter over non-building hexsides at ground level.
Since that would not be in line with common sense as it states in the introduction to the rules we deemed it not valid.
Just wanted to know your thoughts on the matter.

Could the person that came up with the idea explain exactly where the mines were located? :hmmm:

 

[Commissar Piotr]

Hi Guys

In a building location which is as far as I can see the place where to put them.

 

[Psycho]

Hi Guys

In a building location which is as far as I can see the place where to put them.

So if they are in the actual building then how do they attack a vehicle that doesn't enter that building but drives by outside of it?

 

[Commissar Piotr]

Hi Guys

Since the rules stipulate that mines attack anyone entering a minefield hex through a non-building hexside.
Even if the mines is at a upper level in a building the hex as a whole is still a minefield hex.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

It looks to me that onlt units entering the Minefields Location are attack.

From B28.1:
"The presence of a minefield is not revealed until a unit susceptible to that type of attack enters that minefield Location or an MMC discovers it by Searching."

 

[Commissar Piotr]

Hi Guys

So if they are in the actual building then how do they attack a vehicle that doesn't enter that building but drives by outside of it?

Since the rules stipulate that mines attack anyone entering a minefield hex through a non-building hexside.
Even if the mines is at a upper level in a building the hex as a whole is still a minefield hex.
What I try to do here is to see if the rules state one thing but we play it another way. IOW, if we come to the conclusion that the mines theoretically will attack the Tank entering the hex over a non-building hexside because the rules state so we might want to suggest a change of the rules so as to prohibit mines at upper levels of buildings for example.

 

[Commissar Piotr]

Hi Guys and Klas

It looks to me that onlt units entering the Minefields Location are attack.

From B28.1:
"The presence of a minefield is not revealed until a unit susceptible to that type of attack enters that minefield Location or an MMC discovers it by Searching."

B28.1 does not adress when the mines attacks only when the mines presence is revealed as far as I can see.

 

[Ole Boe]

Since the rules stipulate that mines attack anyone entering a minefield hex through a non-building hexside.
Even if the mines is at a upper level in a building the hex as a whole is still a minefield hex.

Hi Peter (and everybody else)

When the ASLRB was written, the word "hex" was used in a lot of places where "Location" was clearly meant. Most of those places have been corrected to "Location", but a few remains, and this is one of them.

It should have said "Location", and I will play as if it says "Location", though I think it should be corrected as well. Maybe a good candidate for J8 errata...

 

[Psycho]

Hi Guys



Since the rules stipulate that mines attack anyone entering a minefield hex through a non-building hexside.
Even if the mines is at a upper level in a building the hex as a whole is still a minefield hex.
What I try to do here is to see if the rules state one thing but we play it another way. IOW, if we come to the conclusion that the mines theoretically will attack the Tank entering the hex over a non-building hexside because the rules state so we might want to suggest a change of the rules so as to prohibit mines at upper levels of buildings for example.

And that is why the rulebook is a large as it is. The rules could be shorter if people wouldn't try to do abuse them by pulling idiotic and unrealistic stunts like that.

 

[CHERDE]

IMO the fact that people like Pjotr ask Questions about some rules might indicate that the game is very interesting for them.
If You have an interesting hobby You think much about it.
If You have interesting, intense and competitive matches You will think about ways to win. It is legal and interesting to do that. It can be fun to figure things/aspects/Q before, during and after the scenarios to achieve better success.
This might be a reason why people attend to tournaments.

I am always thankful when people reveal uncommon aspects of ASL so I have the chance to think about this aspects to and maybe get a better insight in the rules and the game as a whole.

ASL seems to be relalistic and this also can motivate people to ask Q from a realism viewpoint, which will be ofter answered from the legal rules viewpoint.



If the RB would be too big for me or too comprehensive or would be written in a language I could not cope with I would myself consider switching to play chess or checkers.